Shamanism
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31-01-2013, 10:44 PM
RE: Shamanism
(31-01-2013 11:02 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Energy manipulation is an interesting thing. But eventually if you're honest with yourself (or unless you're extremely good at it) you realize it doesn't do all that much. By myself, I was not powerful enough to make it worthwhile once the novelty wears off and demands on some real life results kick in. This is why all shamans and other occultists of history always sought a higher power to help them out.

The problem is, "spiritual world" isn't exactly natural. In nature, you can go to a place and dig up some coal that just lies there for millions of years and have a great source of energy that is just yours. In spiritual world, this is not so. Everything there belongs to somebody or something. You get some basic energy to live from the solar prana and from Earth, but that's it. Want more? Pay for it. And this is where the law of attraction kicks in. Similar things resonate together. Like attracts like. Do you want to have fun? You'll attract beings that want to have fun too, at your expense. Do you want knowledge? You'll attract beings that'll use you as a typewriter and a gullible fool to believe their ramblings that in real life you wouldn't take seriously. Do you want to become more powerful? You'll attract a being that wants to be powerful too - and who will suck you out of energy.


All right, continue. I'll try to be more dilligent at spreading good feelings too. I just say the situation today is a bit more complicated.
I hang around a lot of pagans and satanists, and used to know several wiccans. Many of them discussed an emphasis on not violating the laws of physics. Wiccans talked about "bad" magic coming back at you x3. What this sounds like to me (as well as your "it doesn't do al that much" is that energy manipulation does nothing at all, it fails as hard as prayer. If it worked, why couldn't you violate the laws of physics with it? How is that different from casting a love spell? As for bad stuff and karma and such, I think it's another way to discourage people from attempting to do certain things and noticing they don't work. Also why most magical traditions limit what newbies can do, saying they need to learn and observe and so on. Same with those against things like love spells, those who say a love spell is wrong because it would violate that person's free will. I say they are against love spells because they don't work, and that creates a tidy way of keeping people from acknowledging that they don't work.

As for "spreading good feelings," that might well work, just not for the reasons of "using the force" or "manipulating energy..." If you are trying to view things in a positive way and be nice to people, the good feelings will spread because you're not being a dick all the time. Some people actually appreciate that, and no qi or force or magic powers are required to not be a dick.

As for the OP, exploring is good sometimes. But I do wonder why it's necessary to be a shaman just to be nice to people. Surely you are capable of doing that anyway. Same with going outside and thinking, etc.
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01-02-2013, 06:11 AM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 06:21 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Shamanism
(31-01-2013 11:30 AM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  Well luminon I have no real answers for you right now. I'm still in exploration mode.

Also I'm not supposed to channel negative energies at people cause that's not very nice (also it's hard because I have to be depressed to have negative energy to channel)
All right, have fun. If anything, questions are welcome too Wink

If anything, the energy work should be a background for real world activism. Show the world problems, make people feel bad. Show the solutions and channel the people's discontentment into action. Don't take example from Michael Moore, who offers no solutions. Look at Peter Joseph for example, who got his second Zeitgeist movie (Addendum) better this time in the department of facts and then in the second half of it he presented Jacque Fresco's TVP as a solution.

Pure energy work... Well, I use it, but for private purposes. To get me through exams and diffcult encounters and it has to be done in advance, before the event. Of course it can be also interpreted as conditioning my subconscious to be more sure in that situation when it comes, a form of self-hypnosis. I don't have enough data to prove a difference. And frankly, in this case I only care about the result.

(31-01-2013 10:44 PM)amyb Wrote:  I hang around a lot of pagans and satanists, and used to know several wiccans. Many of them discussed an emphasis on not violating the laws of physics. Wiccans talked about "bad" magic coming back at you x3. What this sounds like to me (as well as your "it doesn't do al that much" is that energy manipulation does nothing at all, it fails as hard as prayer. If it worked, why couldn't you violate the laws of physics with it? How is that different from casting a love spell?
The interaction between the subtle matter (and energy) and our matter is weak. It's there and can be observed on rare occasions when circumstances are just right, but for practical purposes in our daily life it doesn't do all that much. We have a lot of power at our disposal. Watts and kilowatts of electric power, kilojouls of heat, liters and gallons of petrol. Things that help us fly and move around pretty fast. How can I be satisfied with things like turning a psi-wheel slowly in a desired direction? It worked for me a few times, but it was also quite tiring. We have to think practically.

I'd say, all laws are natural and all natural laws can be circumvented through science (intelligent action) and through use of a "higher" natural law. One force can be used to counteract or cancel out another. But not all forces are equally strong on equal scale! Forces have their own domains, in which they are strong. Using a force in a domain in which is not strong is like trying to attract particles gravitationally on quantum level, on which the force of gravity is negligible. As I said, we have to think practically.

(31-01-2013 10:44 PM)amyb Wrote:  As for bad stuff and karma and such, I think it's another way to discourage people from attempting to do certain things and noticing they don't work. Also why most magical traditions limit what newbies can do, saying they need to learn and observe and so on. Same with those against things like love spells, those who say a love spell is wrong because it would violate that person's free will. I say they are against love spells because they don't work, and that creates a tidy way of keeping people from acknowledging that they don't work.
The law of karma is a way to express the law of action and reaction. The law itself is a bit more complicated, most of all it resembles Newtonian mechanics. It is also widely misunderstood, just as free will. Western religions think sins can be simply forgiven, eastern religions never escape from their sins.
Free will is an extremely important thing, it's our capacity to improve ourselves independently. Without free will there is no evolution of consciousness - any outside self-appointed do-gooder can improve us, but we'll revert back to the primal state once he's gone.

As for a love spell, hey, I'm not an expert on that. If that implies manipulating other people, I'd advise against it, even if it was real. If anybody will love me, I'd want a genuine love, not a fake one. And I'd rather put myself through some counseling first, so I'll have a good idea of what a girl wants from me, before making a special effort to attract her.

(31-01-2013 10:44 PM)amyb Wrote:  As for "spreading good feelings," that might well work, just not for the reasons of "using the force" or "manipulating energy..." If you are trying to view things in a positive way and be nice to people, the good feelings will spread because you're not being a dick all the time. Some people actually appreciate that, and no qi or force or magic powers are required to not be a dick.
Esotericism has technical aspects, cultural aspects, philosophic, scientific and even religious aspects. It is concerned with the subtle world that underlies and supports everything, every natural phenomenon. As I understand esotericism and try to practice it, it's a very specialized, technical subject. It does not resist any natural laws, it underlies them. It does not invent new or supernatural forces, it only asserts that some of the forces we know as natural in this dimension, work in higher dimensions as forces of thought, feeling, love and meaning - and are interpreted so by our brain, as much as a particular brain is sensitive to them.
Esotericism says there are methods how to become more responsive to the higher forces that are good for our development and less responsive to the forces that don't help our development. It is a philosophy or "science" of raising one's individual and group consciousness.

Obviously, the world around us is not very responsive to these forces, not directly. One of the most responsive things are the people. Some people, in particular. We are the intermediaries, we can transform the abstract concepts like love, wisdom, intellect or purpose and pass it on for the benefit of our fellow men, animals and plants. Many good people can do that completely unaware of the inner technical workings of the process, they're developed enough to do this intuitively. But the unawareness doesn't really help it, quite opposite.
As an esotericist I'd say the humanity has a purpose, a natural function for the benefit of other departments of nature and ourselves. We did not assume this function yet, but we are on the verge of becoming functional. Hence the present crisis. There are forces that have a cyclical nature. Cycles imply frequency. Frequency implies resonance. I imagine humanity as a plate of kymatics. Kymatics shows us a membrane with grains of sand on it. When given a sound frequency, the grains of sand assume a regular, clear pattern. Sometimes a complex and beautiful pattern. When the sound frequency changes, the grains go into a moment of chaos and re-assemble into a different pattern. If the grains were however stuck together, stuck to the membrane, rigid, heavy and unresponsive, the moment of chaos and re-assembly would be much longer, diffcult and turbulent. Such is the nature of humanity, metaphorically said. This sound frequency could be seen as a carrying myth of a civilization, a carrier culture or myth. Our culture of past centuries is in breakdown today and it could be said our civilization is in the process of re-arranging itself. It is therefore a good idea to listen for a sound of new frequency, new culture that will inspire us to assume a new, beautiful pattern.

As for various "powers" and "supernatural abilities"... The esotericism as I know is not for those who go in to get anything for themselves. It's however good for those, who want to become more effective in service and improvement of the world.
(31-01-2013 10:44 PM)amyb Wrote:  As for the OP, exploring is good sometimes. But I do wonder why it's necessary to be a shaman just to be nice to people. Surely you are capable of doing that anyway. Same with going outside and thinking, etc.
Yes, I wonder about that too. Unless it's one's personal nature to work in this way, to have a direct feeling of the subtle energies, then this "shamanism" is not a way of the least resistance.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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01-02-2013, 06:59 AM
RE: Shamanism
(01-02-2013 06:11 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Show the solutions and channel the people's discontentment into action.

So that's probably why your visions of a new world don't appeal to me at all. I am perfectly content with my life.

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01-02-2013, 10:38 AM
RE: Shamanism
(01-02-2013 06:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 06:11 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Show the solutions and channel the people's discontentment into action.
So that's probably why your visions of a new world don't appeal to me at all. I am perfectly content with my life.
All right. What do you think about the concept of good will? The question is, would you like other people to be also perfectly content with their lives?

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
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01-02-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Shamanism
(01-02-2013 10:38 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 06:59 AM)Dom Wrote:  So that's probably why your visions of a new world don't appeal to me at all. I am perfectly content with my life.
All right. What do you think about the concept of good will? The question is, would you like other people to be also perfectly content with their lives?
Sure, I wish everyone all the best. I hope they all go out and learn and explore and find their spot in the world. And if yours is with this project, I hope you make a success out of it.

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02-02-2013, 09:52 AM
RE: Shamanism
So pyschopomp is fucked up. Nuff said. 。・゜・(ノД`)・゜・。

now to being the replying.

I'll restate that I think most of the magic stuff is many just stuff with nothing magical about it.

While I am a nice person (sometimes) normally, I like the idea of being able to transfer my happiness to someone who needs it more than I do. Most of the time I do follow up though, I don't rely upon energy solely, by actually interacting with whoever I'm directing the energy at.

As for a perfectly content world, that might be nice, but I would perfere if everyone arrived at that point with no more than minor assistance or none.

I also don't do energy work for myself, I direct good at others and try to take the bad out of them. I'm not to good at drawing the bad out though.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

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02-02-2013, 12:06 PM
RE: Shamanism
(02-02-2013 09:52 AM)Xinoftruden Wrote:  So pyschopomp is fucked up. Nuff said. 。・゜・(ノД`)・゜・。

now to being the replying.

I'll restate that I think most of the magic stuff is many just stuff with nothing magical about it.

While I am a nice person (sometimes) normally, I like the idea of being able to transfer my happiness to someone who needs it more than I do. Most of the time I do follow up though, I don't rely upon energy solely, by actually interacting with whoever I'm directing the energy at.

As for a perfectly content world, that might be nice, but I would perfere if everyone arrived at that point with no more than minor assistance or none.

I also don't do energy work for myself, I direct good at others and try to take the bad out of them. I'm not to good at drawing the bad out though.


Yeah, but what the actual fuck is 'energy work'?

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02-02-2013, 12:12 PM
RE: Shamanism
Yes... does this energy work involve any kind of physical involvement? Consider Some sort of breathing exercise or movement of some sort?

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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02-02-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: Shamanism
How many joules of energy work does it take to make someone 1% happier?

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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02-02-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: Shamanism
dammit, I meant energy shit.

edit:
And it has no physical aspect apart from having to be happy to have the positive energy to direct.

When you are courting a nice girl an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red-hot cinder a second seems like an hour. That's relativity.

You cannot successfully determine beforehand which side of the bread to butter.
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