Share your de-conversion story
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21-06-2014, 03:31 AM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2014 04:24 AM by apolemicist.)
Re: Share your de-conversion story
well... it all started when I was 12 and I was too much ignorant about my position on god and it's validity

every Monday we had theology class(including Quranic history and sharia laws) fallowed by a reading of an individual and then 10 minutes for questions and answers. I was too tried from last night cause we had just moved and there was a lot of cleaning and organizing to do (what made me question my position happened the night before) , as I was moving my desk in my room my brother came to me and said : didn't I tell you to buy a much lighter desk ? I turned to hum and said but this one was more suitable for my use , he then said " what is the point of me telling you if the outcome is the same and already decided" so, as I was holding my backpack in my folded arms : I raised my hand and asked my teacher : "what is the point of this life if the outcome is already decided for us? (weird silence in class) I mean shouldn't we be able to change our path? if he already knows where I would end up then this is just cruelly pointless... uuhmm isn't it ?" the answer was really flawed,naive and kinda faaaaaaaaar too much included guesses and presumptions. as the class turned to the teacher he then told me that Allah knows the past, present future and the beyond cause he is out of time and his knowing the past is horizontal will your freewill is vertical ( I know what you think ... well I guess) so your free to do what you pleases you but the best way is to surrender yourself and (there's a myth in my country saying) if you try to think about the god's characteristics you'll gone insane (later I found out it was because of Nietzsche's death) . I don't know why but this answer was like me telling my brother you don't know past,present future and the beyond so why should I listen to you (the same with my teacher)? school was over and on the way home I couldn't stop thinking about this i remember thinking with my self that how does he know that? why is that he down't go insane over thinking about that himself?! what source is there that I don't have?! and well I did what every sane (stupid) person would do, confirmation bias - maybe he is very faithful and is blessed with god's gift ... he knows Koran and the Hadith best I guess ( what else could I do?)
when I got home I changed ,while I was having lunch and I did whatever any sane(stupid) person would do, I asked my parent the same question and the same nonsense was offered again with a little hint of the sinister felling of us being the chosen one and lucky enough with the best religion ... so I tried to argue at the table; but he already knows the outcome I mean... what about martyrdom... because .. because if he knows the out come then there is no martyr and/or martyrdom is it? the whole life is pointless for us then ... they then tried to convince me with Hadith and verses of Koran and in the end they also ended up the same with the most famous brilliant (stupidly cowardice) sentence "just .. just forget it this questions will be answered if you have faith and surrender yourself. Huh

surrender yourself , have faith , it'll all workout in the end , don't let the Satan deceive you ... these were the kinds of answers I got so I went to my room sit on the chair beside my not so much light weighted desk and started writing them down with a number in front of each that showed how many times I heard them and by the end of another week (2 week as the ongoing week) I ended up with something like 200 and 150 of each the winner of course was the surrender yourself with even more than 300 times which was what made me tired of keeping a record. meaningless, pathetic, presumptuous and most of all ambiguous . after ignoring them for another week (which I shouldn't have Angry ) I got a new answer read the Koran all you need is in there ( and when they say all they mean all really), I picked up the book and started reading after making Wudu which is really Voodoo by the way and of course I made notes as I was reading and then asked my teacher that Koran says this (liked killing heretics and that... ) why does it say so? and then it got worse so much worse . what he said next outnumbered that surrender yourself thing which was exactly this " who can understand Koran really to it's fullest... you know Rad ( which is now what my friends call me and means the heretic) These verses has too many layers of meanings, so many vast interpretations and we can only come to a limit understanding of it but if you insist then look for Asbab al-nuzul (meaning occasions or circumstances of revelation ,and for your determined birth location sake our language is Persian why is even prayer and Koran not allowed to be in another language) anyhow, I read that and well this is where I became convinced that this is all made up and of course way to much dangerous because of it's dubious text, that's why everyone has a meaning for a verse , that is why the the void of religion will be filled with corruption and stupidity people who want to take advantage of this and after all why didn't I go insane? Tongue

At this point I was in the middle of my way to learn English which turned my whole life over and later became a chance for me to encounter with Hume,Saul Kripke, and finally the dialectics. so I used what little knowledge of English I had and searched over the internet for words like freewill, god existence and most of all Determinism. it was so hard to read too many words to look up for in dictionary , way too many technical words ( by the way I was completely unaware of Atheism Weeping or Even Agnosticism Sadcryface ) so I was going to give up as it was really hard to fallow and ... and no one was independent in their thinking so there was absolutely no one to ask help from. 4 months was passed from my first year in junior high and well I was a bookworm never got a grade less than 20 or in words you get use to, A but it changed when I came to know determinism and more specifically compatibilism , all these questions aside ; what about god? is he a she? does it exist? and where to look for this? , I had to read philosophy so where to begin, who should I start with and what books? for none of this I could rely on our philosophy books (except Bashiriye.h or Zibakala.m) because here not only they like pseudo-science they like to add something to philosophy called Hekmah which is basically a big biiiig load of physical assumptions (in spite of their contradiction to physics) and more Assumptions of metaphysics . So went to a book store and searched for book and it... was.. HARD to find something good because they we're mixed with Hekmah so I didn't buy anything from the "philosophy" shelf of course, and went on to literature part picked up a book called " The stranger Albert Camus " it was the first book I read 5 times and after that I read about Existentialism , Sartre and well the great moment that every sane person(stupid) person goes to The panic Hobo Unsure No Gasp So we finally met , Atheism ( then what the hell I was doing, what should I do? , what about life? should I talk to anyone about this? )
which in the process of it I went thtough three phases

1. Sadegh Hedayat ,Ahmad Shamloo and Omar Khayyam (Persian critics)

During my second year in junior high my grade began to fall gradually as my main focus wan't school or any other extra activity, I became interested in literature and Started reading every book that i could get my hands on it Religious, Fiction, non-fiction even banned books like The the satanic verses or Voltaire books . so My attitude changed very fast in a short time and the outcome was a very big void between me and my friends,family and mostly anyone on my age . I became more skeptic yet more alone in library , more polemic yet had to remain silent mostly cause it feels good to have a head on you shoulders ... you know. at this point I abandoned my religious belief , I never prayed anymore, never attended Mosque , Religious gatherings, fasting in Ramadan but I was still in fear of being wrong ,Blasphemy or that I shouldn't offend their naive views

2- English , Hume, the Socratic method,Charles Bradlaugh and the dialectics

After I was nearly in the end of my first period of my path in learning English I began to read books in English downloading them from the internet using torrent and different blogs , I read All that was written by Darwin which was obviously mean that there was no first man and any creation ,Thomas Huxley, which helped me with my misunderstandings of Evolution , Hume who finally brought me to my senses . after this time which lasted for another two month I wan't in fear anymore I would question bluntly and demand answers , I wasn't afraid of offending any believe , and I started ghost writing a summery of what I had realized .

3-The bible

In my search within all these subjects a friend of mine who was my classmate in English class and was suspected about my out-grew of faith told me that I have to read this book cause ....ready?.. "It was the word of god" and well at first I didn't read it completely most of the times I just checked the verses that was referenced in books I came about but as I read more I figured out as the atheists say (Christians are the only atheists I know because they don't believe in all Greek gods) it was the word of the only god and well ... after I read it both in Persian and English for about 3 times in each language I was Convinced that this is a lie and I had to out grew this absurdity. I haven't seen any book more powerful than the bible for disillusioning of this Delusion.

At this point I was a convinced atheist ( I object to that word) but later on in a discussion with my uncle , he asked me why didn't I pray anymore or didn't do my praying for times a day ? well I answered why should I? and he said because if you don't you've sinned so I told him how does he know? is he god? who do you know his mind? I smiled and said or maybe her mind? he then sat beside me and started saying the same words I heard once an somehow we ended up with this talk:

- Rad( I didn't mention my own name here) do you believe in god?
- it's not a matter of believe.. it's.. hen then jumped in and said
- then what is it ...tell me ...tell me [he was ,is and will be very religious)
- well uncle it's a matter of existence if it exist then me believing it or not doesn't change anything, does it?
- so... so do you think god exist?
- With the probability of us having a global country with a dog being it's leader
- so .. no then? yeah?
- I never said no I said with the probability of ...
[he then furiously looked at me]
- rad, this is absurd ,surly you know that
- yeah this is absurd anything with this probability is absurd
- well your being judgmental
- really? you haven't asked me a single question of what I came to know or understand about this potion and somehow I'm the one being judgmental? ..really?
-but Koran says : "things...things and many other things "
- so?
- SO?.....SO? this is the word of god
- No the book of Mormons is the word of god?
-what ? morm.. what?
- they are religious and they have a book too
- but ours is the last one and our prophet the last one?
- I have evidence that begs to differ , Mormonism is the last and then I explained to him what it is
- this is not true and you know it
- congrats now you know where do I stand on this subject
he then went on to continue wit his prayer and after a year in my birthday I told him that I'm an atheist (however after I read Plantinga and Craig I became an Igtheist) now my family almost knows but they made me promise not to tell anyone about this and not to get them and myself in trouble ( good thing my own family is not really dogmatic Smile however some of them are very religious Facepalm )

It as a really perfect journey but the loss of the time I wasted believing this nonsense never leaves me alone . what a great deal of pleasure could I have and it's all gone I feel like I need a big win bigger than anything else I had done ever to get over this obligated lost .. so now I formed a little group with others like me here no a lot of course, we discuss different subjects and comment on them but it's very lonely and hard to keep silent ... you finally have an open mind and your obligated to have a closed mouth. I have to pretend all the time , it kills me inside when I hear some of my family members talking so much proudly about stoning to death or honor killings .

I'll break out of this hell-hole one day,after all we are the survival of hope and we've managed to keep it's light alive after centuries of being killed,bullied ,Isolated and burnt. Simile and hug an atheist Wink




"Dare to think!"
-Kant
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21-06-2014, 06:30 AM
RE: Share your de-conversion story
^^^ Just... WOW!

Smile

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21-06-2014, 06:37 AM
RE: Share your de-conversion story
Wow, a very interesting tale. I can't even imagine what it must be like to grow up where you live.

Isn't it dangerous for you to voice your disbelief?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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21-06-2014, 06:45 AM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2014 07:35 AM by apolemicist.)
RE: Share your de-conversion story
(21-06-2014 06:37 AM)Dom Wrote:  Wow, a very interesting tale. I can't even imagine what it must be like to grow up where you live.

Isn't it dangerous for you to voice your disbelief?

Of course it is , but I'm figuratively suffocating here and I need to express myself somehow ,Even this forum is blocked here and I must use different VPNs to bypass the filtering
.... so to hell with danger,atheism Rocks Banana_zorro

"Dare to think!"
-Kant
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21-06-2014, 06:50 AM
RE: Share your de-conversion story
Just be careful! We don't want anything bad to happen to you.

Welcome to TTA, if you look around I am sure you will find lots of interesting things to talk about. Thumbsup

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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21-06-2014, 07:34 AM
RE: Share your de-conversion story
(21-06-2014 06:45 AM)apolemicist Wrote:  
(21-06-2014 06:37 AM)Dom Wrote:  Wow, a very interesting tale. I can't even imagine what it must be like to grow up where you live.

Isn't it dangerous for you to voice your disbelief?

Of course it is , but I'm literally suffocating here and I need to express myself somehow ,Even this forum is blocked here and I must use different VPNs to bypass the filtering
.... so to hell with danger,atheism Rocks Banana_zorro

No, you are not literally suffocating - you are figuratively suffocating.
Literally. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-06-2014, 07:44 AM
RE: Share your de-conversion story
(21-06-2014 03:31 AM)apolemicist Wrote:  
well... it all started when I was 12 and I was too much ignorant about my position on god and it's validity

every Monday we had theology class(including Quranic history and sharia laws) fallowed by a reading of an individual and then 10 minutes for questions and answers. I was too tried from last night cause we had just moved and there was a lot of cleaning and organizing to do (what made me question my position happened the night before) , as I was moving my desk in my room my brother came to me and said : didn't I tell you to buy a much lighter desk ? I turned to hum and said but this one was more suitable for my use , he then said " what is the point of me telling you if the outcome is the same and already decided" so, as I was holding my backpack in my folded arms : I raised my hand and asked my teacher : "what is the point of this life if the outcome is already decided for us? (weird silence in class) I mean shouldn't we be able to change our path? if he already knows where I would end up then this is just cruelly pointless... uuhmm isn't it ?" the answer was really flawed,naive and kinda faaaaaaaaar too much included guesses and presumptions. as the class turned to the teacher he then told me that Allah knows the past, present future and the beyond cause he is out of time and his knowing the past is horizontal will your freewill is vertical ( I know what you think ... well I guess) so your free to do what you pleases you but the best way is to surrender yourself and (there's a myth in my country saying) if you try to think about the god's characteristics you'll gone insane (later I found out it was because of Nietzsche's death) . I don't know why but this answer was like me telling my brother you don't know past,present future and the beyond so why should I listen to you (the same with my teacher)? school was over and on the way home I couldn't stop thinking about this i remember thinking with my self that how does he know that? why is that he down't go insane over thinking about that himself?! what source is there that I don't have?! and well I did what every sane (stupid) person would do, confirmation bias - maybe he is very faithful and is blessed with god's gift ... he knows Koran and the Hadith best I guess ( what else could I do?)
when I got home I changed ,while I was having lunch and I did whatever any sane(stupid) person would do, I asked my parent the same question and the same nonsense was offered again with a little hint of the sinister felling of us being the chosen one and lucky enough with the best religion ... so I tried to argue at the table; but he already knows the outcome I mean... what about martyrdom... because .. because if he knows the out come then there is no martyr and/or martyrdom is it? the whole life is pointless for us then ... they then tried to convince me with Hadith and verses of Koran and in the end they also ended up the same with the most famous brilliant (stupidly cowardice) sentence "just .. just forget it this questions will be answered if you have faith and surrender yourself. Huh

surrender yourself , have faith , it'll all workout in the end , don't let the Satan deceive you ... these were the kinds of answers I got so I went to my room sit on the chair beside my not so much light weighted desk and started writing them down with a number in front of each that showed how many times I heard them and by the end of another week (2 week as the ongoing week) I ended up with something like 200 and 150 of each the winner of course was the surrender yourself with even more than 300 times which was what made me tired of keeping a record. meaningless, pathetic, presumptuous and most of all ambiguous . after ignoring them for another week (which I shouldn't have Angry ) I got a new answer read the Koran all you need is in there ( and when they say all they mean all really), I picked up the book and started reading after making Wudu which is really Voodoo by the way and of course I made notes as I was reading and then asked my teacher that Koran says this (liked killing heretics and that... ) why does it say so? and then it got worse so much worse . what he said next outnumbered that surrender yourself thing which was exactly this " who can understand Koran really to it's fullest... you know Rad ( which is now what my friends call me and means the heretic) These verses has too many layers of meanings, so many vast interpretations and we can only come to a limit understanding of it but if you insist then look for Asbab al-nuzul (meaning occasions or circumstances of revelation ,and for your determined birth location sake our language is Persian why is even prayer and Koran not allowed to be in another language) anyhow, I read that and well this is where I became convinced that this is all made up and of course way to much dangerous because of it's dubious text, that's why everyone has a meaning for a verse , that is why the the void of religion will be filled with corruption and stupidity people who want to take advantage of this and after all why didn't I go insane? Tongue

At this point I was in the middle of my way to learn English which turned my whole life over and later became a chance for me to encounter with Hume,Saul Kripke, and finally the dialectics. so I used what little knowledge of English I had and searched over the internet for words like freewill, god existence and most of all Determinism. it was so hard to read too many words to look up for in dictionary , way too many technical words ( by the way I was completely unaware of Atheism Weeping or Even Agnosticism Sadcryface ) so I was going to give up as it was really hard to fallow and ... and no one was independent in their thinking so there was absolutely no one to ask help from. 4 months was passed from my first year in junior high and well I was a bookworm never got a grade less than 20 or in words you get use to, A but it changed when I came to know determinism and more specifically compatibilism , all these questions aside ; what about god? is he a she? does it exist? and where to look for this? , I had to read philosophy so where to begin, who should I start with and what books? for none of this I could rely on our philosophy books (except Bashiriye.h or Zibakala.m) because here not only they like pseudo-science they like to add something to philosophy called Hekmah which is basically a big biiiig load of physical assumptions (in spite of their contradiction to physics) and more Assumptions of metaphysics . So went to a book store and searched for book and it... was.. HARD to find something good because they we're mixed with Hekmah so I didn't buy anything from the "philosophy" shelf of course, and went on to literature part picked up a book called " The stranger Albert Camus " it was the first book I read 5 times and after that I read about Existentialism , Sartre and well the great moment that every sane person(stupid) person goes to The panic Hobo Unsure No Gasp So we finally met , Atheism ( then what the hell I was doing, what should I do? , what about life? should I talk to anyone about this? )
which in the process of it I went thtough three phases

1. Sadegh Hedayat ,Ahmad Shamloo and Omar Khayyam (Persian critics)

During my second year in junior high my grade began to fall gradually as my main focus wan't school or any other extra activity, I became interested in literature and Started reading every book that i could get my hands on it Religious, Fiction, non-fiction even banned books like The the satanic verses or Voltaire books . so My attitude changed very fast in a short time and the outcome was a very big void between me and my friends,family and mostly anyone on my age . I became more skeptic yet more alone in library , more polemic yet had to remain silent mostly cause it feels good to have a head on you shoulders ... you know. at this point I abandoned my religious belief , I never prayed anymore, never attended Mosque , Religious gatherings, fasting in Ramadan but I was still in fear of being wrong ,Blasphemy or that I shouldn't offend their naive views

2- English , Hume, the Socratic method,Charles Bradlaugh and the dialectics

After I was nearly in the end of my first period of my path in learning English I began to read books in English downloading them from the internet using torrent and different blogs , I read All that was written by Darwin which was obviously mean that there was no first man and any creation ,Thomas Huxley, which helped me with my misunderstandings of Evolution , Hume who finally brought me to my senses . after this time which lasted for another two month I wan't in fear anymore I would question bluntly and demand answers , I wasn't afraid of offending any believe , and I started ghost writing a summery of what I had realized .

3-The bible

In my search within all these subjects a friend of mine who was my classmate in English class and was suspected about my out-grew of faith told me that I have to read this book cause ....ready?.. "It was the word of god" and well at first I didn't read it completely most of the times I just checked the verses that was referenced in books I came about but as I read more I figured out as the atheists say (Christians are the only atheists I know because they don't believe in all Greek gods) it was the word of the only god and well ... after I read it both in Persian and English for about 3 times in each language I was Convinced that this is a lie and I had to out grew this absurdity. I haven't seen any book more powerful than the bible for disillusioning of this Delusion.

At this point I was a convinced atheist ( I object to that word) but later on in a discussion with my uncle , he asked me why didn't I pray anymore or didn't do my praying for times a day ? well I answered why should I? and he said because if you don't you've sinned so I told him how does he know? is he god? who do you know his mind? I smiled and said or maybe her mind? he then sat beside me and started saying the same words I heard once an somehow we ended up with this talk:

- Rad( I didn't mention my own name here) do you believe in god?
- it's not a matter of believe.. it's.. hen then jumped in and said
- then what is it ...tell me ...tell me [he was ,is and will be very religious)
- well uncle it's a matter of existence if it exist then me believing it or not doesn't change anything, does it?
- so... so do you think god exist?
- With the probability of us having a global country with a dog being it's leader
- so .. no then? yeah?
- I never said no I said with the probability of ...
[he then furiously looked at me]
- rad, this is absurd ,surly you know that
- yeah this is absurd anything with this probability is absurd
- well your being judgmental
- really? you haven't asked me a single question of what I came to know or understand about this potion and somehow I'm the one being judgmental? ..really?
-but Koran says : "things...things and many other things "
- so?
- SO?.....SO? this is the word of god
- No the book of Mormons is the word of god?
-what ? morm.. what?
- they are religious and they have a book too
- but ours is the last one and our prophet the last one?
- I have evidence that begs to differ , Mormonism is the last and then I explained to him what it is
- this is not true and you know it
- congrats now you know where do I stand on this subject
he then went on to continue wit his prayer and after a year in my birthday I told him that I'm an atheist (however after I read Plantinga and Craig I became an Igtheist) now my family almost knows but they made me promise not to tell anyone about this and not to get them and myself in trouble ( good thing my own family is not really dogmatic Smile however some of them are very religious Facepalm )

It as a really perfect journey but the loss of the time I wasted believing this nonsense never leaves me alone . what a great deal of pleasure could I have and it's all gone I feel like I need a big win bigger than anything else I had done ever to get over this obligated lost .. so now I formed a little group with others like me here no a lot of course, we discuss different subjects and comment on them but it's very lonely and hard to keep silent ... you finally have an open mind and your obligated to have a closed mouth. I have to pretend all the time , it kills me inside when I hear some of my family members talking so much proudly about stoning to death or honor killings .

I'll break out of this hell-hole one day,after all we are the survival of hope and we've managed to keep it's light alive after centuries of being killed,bullied ,Isolated and burnt. Simile and hug an atheist Wink

I liked your story as a man who lived in a Muslim Ghetto in France his whole life (Muslims are around of 20%-40%).
I suppose that you were a Shi'a because you say in one of your post that you're from Persia. Even if you were certainly a shi'a I can say you that the majority of Muslims who live in France are Sunnis from Maghreb and West Africa. I can see many similar things with apostates of Islam that I know and you. (I'm not a former Muslim , I'm a former Christian).
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21-06-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Share your de-conversion story
Quote:I liked your story as a man who lived in a Muslim Ghetto in France his whole life (Muslims are around of 20%-40%).
I suppose that you were a Shi'a because you say in one of your post that you're from Persia. Even if you were certainly a shi'a I can say you that the majority of Muslims who live in France are Sunnis from Maghreb and West Africa. I can see many similar things with apostates of Islam that I know and you. (I'm not a former Muslim , I'm a former Christian)


tnx, yeah you guessed right athough I never made it as a shiaa I think you know that the age of reason is 15 in shiaa doctorate- lucky me I break out before that, but I am a former Muslim yeah

"Dare to think!"
-Kant
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21-06-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: Share your de-conversion story
awesome story, be safe, don't let your non belief get you into physical danger.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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21-06-2014, 10:04 AM
RE: Share your de-conversion story
(21-06-2014 03:31 AM)apolemicist Wrote:  ---
... so I didn't buy anything from the "philosophy" shelf of course, and went on to literature part picked up a book called " The stranger Albert Camus " it was the first book I read 5 times and after that I read about Existentialism , Sartre and well the great moment that every sane person(stupid) person goes to The panic Hobo Unsure No Gasp So we finally met , Atheism ( then what the hell I was doing, what should I do? , what about life? should I talk to anyone about this? ) ...
----

Ah, Camus and Sartre ... two of my favorite old friends. Heart

I think I read The Stranger when I was 15 or 16 and I actually recall walking around in a daze for quite a while afterward... and then came Sartre. It's been more than 30 years since then but... I do recall those perception-altering moments. Wink
***

Apolemicist, I'm so glad you are able to access this forum but hang on to your self until you can get out to freely express. Please stay safe!

Welcome. Smile

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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