Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
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05-09-2017, 08:57 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 09:01 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
(05-09-2017 05:30 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(29-08-2017 06:14 PM)ImFred Wrote:  Since my personal mental crisis thread branched into my "teaching" profession I decided to start a school sucks thread.

Comment number one: You gotta be a real piece of shit to get expelled from the schools in Baltimore.

Discuss intelligently.

If a school sucks, it isn't because of the teachers or students, it is because the state and federal government gut funding to investing to make those communities stable, inside and outside the school system.

Why is it one or the other?
It's all of the above.
Students, Teachers, Parents, and no will to fix the catastrophe.
The worst schools get the worst teachers.
The best teachers teach at private schools where they receive higher pay.
The neighborhoods with the worst schools generally have parents with less education as well.
On and on.
In the end it comes down to a will to fix the problem.
But throwing money at it is not going to do the trick.

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05-09-2017, 10:05 PM
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
(05-09-2017 05:30 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  If a school sucks, it isn't because of the teachers or students, it is because the state and federal government gut funding to investing to make those communities stable, inside and outside the school system.
The United States is often tied for first in the amount of money it spends per student. As a percent of GDP it's among the highest in the world. Post-secondary spending is 89% higher than the OECD average. The starting wage for US teachers is 5th in the world. Yet as we spend more and more quality drops and drops. Why.....it's almost like throwing money at the problem isn't a magical cure to the problem.

There are a great deal of problems with education but a lack of spending is not really on that list, unless you think we should be spending double the rest of the world on an education system that continues to lag behind so much the US is behind the average in Math and Science and just barely makes the average in reading.

Now this is just my opinion, and you are welcome to debate me on it, but education in the US is the single most glaringly obvious case of federal government involvement being a disaster. While there are a lot of points I could bring up to support this it is the federal governments insistence of tying spending to SAT scores, a system that is being increasingly thrown out but other industrialized nations (all of which lead the US on education results), that has been the biggest single problem.It's been unspeakably detrimental to education, dramatically changing how we educate children, how teachers do their job, and what things we prioritize educationally.

As for a lack of funding......
[Image: fededucation.jpg]
No, that's just factually not the issue.


(05-09-2017 05:30 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  FYI my mom was a teacher.
So?

(05-09-2017 05:30 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Taxing billionaires wont kill them
We already do, and I suspect more than you think we do.

(05-09-2017 05:30 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  taxing corporations wont kill them.
Again, we already do.


(05-09-2017 05:30 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Taxes don't have to be seen as robbery, but investment into the future.
Suuuure...I guess I can agree with that but, leaving aside the fact that there is a real difference between good investment and malinvestment and the fact that the government doesn't have the tools to tell one from the other, the question that begs an answer is...why the hell would you want the government, the body of society that is the most inefficient, corrupt, and bureaucratic to handle anyone's "investments"?

I have a lot more to say on this, and your other posts, but (and I genuinely mean no offense when I say this) you have a tendency to ghost out of a thread as soon as I start asking you direct questions.....and I'm about to do that. So before I expound on what I have to say, and to avoid wasting my time, I have a series of questions for you Brian before I continue.
  • How much, as a percent of federal income tax, do you feel that the 1% should be paying?
  • How much, as a percent, do you feel the top 10% should be paying?
  • What methodology did you use to arrive at these numbers?
  • How are these numbers not entirely arbitrary and pulled outta ...lets be kind and say thin air?

I wanna get a baseline on what you think is their "fair share" or to be honest if you have even thought that far beyond just shouting about perceived injustice. Some how I feel I'm wasting my time trying to extend an olive branch, but I guess we will see.

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05-09-2017, 10:44 PM
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
(05-09-2017 06:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  This logic has been used for years to justify not taxing the rich. I think it stinks.
Who's been saying we shouldn't tax the rich? The US has the second highest Federal Corporate Tax rate in the world, and when you take state and local corporate taxes into account it can blow past the highest by a decent margin. Cali, for example has a state corporate flat tax of 8%, on top of the 35%+ corporate tax and any local corporate taxes.

It also has among the highest individual maximums in the world.


(05-09-2017 06:28 AM)morondog Wrote:  It's more complex than purely that, otherwise no corporation or billionaire would even pay a cent in tax, and every corporation and rich person would simply move to the place with the lowest tax rate.

While we have seen that actually happen, and for the betterment of the country, like in Ireland during the An Tíogar Ceilteach of the mid '90s through mid '00s. Where a large drop in the corporate income tax, (as well as other factors such as increased political stability, the Euro, industrial polices, and so on) being considered by most economists as the single largest diver of Irish economic prosperity at the time. Ireland has a corporate tax rate among the lowest in the world at the time. It's why so many tech companies, Dell, Microsoft, Intel for example, moved there.

Anyway it's not a simple task of just picking the country with the lowest tax rate, you also have to take into account the ease of doing business, political stability, is the expense of moving moving a company to great for a business to mange even if it would save money in the long run, how stable is the economy there, the fact that the Us is still the world reserve currency and hundreds more.

Hong Kong for example is an economic marvel and it's corporate tax rate is less than half the US and it's maximum individual tax rate is 15%, over a third less than the US.

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06-09-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
(05-09-2017 10:44 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Who's been saying we shouldn't tax the rich? The US has the second highest Federal Corporate Tax rate in the world, and when you take state and local corporate taxes into account it can blow past the highest by a decent margin...

The corporate tax rate in Australia tops out at 30% but the problem here is actually getting the multinationals to pay up. Blood, meet stone.

For example, in 2016, eBay Australia paid $1.9 million in tax on earnings of $59 million, or just 3.3% of taxable earnings. And the average salary of one of eBay Australia's ~110 employees is $312,500.

Compare this with a government school classroom teacher's pay range of $65,415 to $98,047 and wonder why so many highly skilled Aussie teachers are leaving the profession in droves—and the second-rate wannabe teachers with a Bachelor of Arts that mummy and daddy paid for taking their places.

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06-09-2017, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2017 01:06 PM by BikerDude.)
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
(05-09-2017 10:44 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Who's been saying we shouldn't tax the rich? The US has the second highest Federal Corporate Tax rate in the world, and when you take state and local corporate taxes into account it can blow past the highest by a decent margin. Cali, for example has a state corporate flat tax of 8%, on top of the 35%+ corporate tax and any local corporate taxes.

It also has among the highest individual maximums in the world.

It's not the effective tax rate.
No corporation pays anything close to that.
And many pay zero.
And personally I don't feel any need to "justify" raising corporate taxes beyond noticing that they've been sucking the life blood out of US taxpayers for decades.
Washington has turned into a short stop over for our tax dollars before they get handed out to corporate donors and insiders while college costs spiral out of control and teachers get laid off and we generally they take a long piss all over the chumps that put up with it.
Corporate socialism is what we have now adays.
Fuck em.
Of course it doesn't do much good if we keep electing the fist puppets that just hand it back out to the wealthy.
In the end people debate on and on about which sales pitch they like best.
The political class or the business class. Those are presented as the full range of "solutions" and neither is actually a solution.
They serve themselves and each other only.




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06-09-2017, 07:46 PM
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
Honestly, I don't think we can buy our way out of this problem.

Funds are wildly misallocated but the lack of student engagement is cultural for the students and a symptom of an antiquated and dying system of brick and mortar and compulsory attendance. If public education is structurally crooked, and it is, both figuratively and literally, then reinforcing the system already in place with even more funds only makes the problem worse. My view is only anecdotal but I don't only think American schools are substandard but so profoundly dysfunctional they're actually harmful. Pumping money into it without reform is like buying cars for people to fight traffic jams.
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06-09-2017, 09:51 PM
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
(06-09-2017 10:58 AM)SYZ Wrote:  The corporate tax rate in Australia tops out at 30% but the problem here is actually getting the multinationals to pay up. Blood, meet stone.

For example, in 2016, eBay Australia paid $1.9 million in tax on earnings of $59 million, or just 3.3% of taxable earnings. And the average salary of one of eBay Australia's ~110 employees is $312,500.
Oh absolutely, there are companies out there that use corporate tax "loop holes", apply for tax breaks they probably shouldn't get, or just out and out evade taxes altogether. Australia also has a Dividend imputation corporate tax system which..goddamn that just makes an already herculean effort of understanding tax codes even more difficult haha. It does have a small hand in why Corporations seem to pay less than the tax code demands, but a lot of counties are moving away from it for that very reason though their are good things about it too but..ya it's a mess all over haha.

That said I was mostly just countering the argument that people were using the fear of corporations leaving to justify not not taxing the rich and used the US as an example. I didn't feel it was accurate because we largely are, quite a lot in fact, though that is different from nation to nation. Like I said a lot of the nations in the world with exceptionally low corporate taxes, and in some cases, income taxes are some of the most prosperous nations on earth. Taxation CAN be used for the betterment of society, absolutely they can, but not when they are ineptly managed and poorly implemented and I'd argue, in the US at least, that that is absolutely the case and it's been detrimental.

Now, still using the US as an example, I'm gonna step outta my comfortable tent of facts and sources and just offer a personal opinion. Do I think Corporations should be paying a larger percentage of the tax revenue? Yes, absolutely. Right now about 10-13% of federal tax revenue comes from Corporate taxation. Now where SHOULD it be? That I have no idea (I'd maintain neither does anyone else Tongue ) and any number I'd pick would largely be arbitrary. There are so many historical conditions that it's hard to draw any useful data when looking back.

Now all that said I have to point out that the government is spending about a trillion more a year that it makes and that is a huge problem that no seems to want to take serious, at least in politics. Ideally I'd want taxes across the board to lower, along with spending but that's just me.

One of the real shifts in revenue over the years is seen here:

[Image: 9-5-17tax-f2.png]

Now that chart can make you jump to conclusions. yes shortly after the war Corporations paid nearly 40% of the federal taxation but it's important to keep in mind a lot of things, the amount the US needed in taxes was much lower even following the war making a higher corporate tax more manageable for business.

Anyway the interesting shift I wanted to point out is federal taxes shifting away from corporate taxes and to pay roll taxes. The payroll taxes explode with the introduction of Medicaid Medicare and the like in the mid '60s. Now while the idea was that the tax burden would be split between employee and employer.....almost every economist recognizes that the employer just passed the cost on the the employee via lower wages than would otherwise be paid. Personally while I recognize there are a lot of reason for the cooling in wage growth I think pay roll tax is one of the largest contributing factors.


(06-09-2017 10:58 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Compare this with a government school classroom teacher's pay range of $65,415 to $98,047 and wonder why so many highly skilled Aussie teachers are leaving the profession in droves—and the second-rate wannabe teachers with a Bachelor of Arts that mummy and daddy paid for taking their places.

It's a real shame too because it didn't use to be that way. From ancient Greece and Rome teachers, especially good ones, were fairly well paid. history is rife of examples of great and well respected teachers of great wealth. I'd love to delve into why there is this cultural shift away from teachers being a noble and respected profession. there are a lot of reasons obviously and there is probably some fantastic literature out there on the subject though I consider myself largely uninformed on the subject.

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06-09-2017, 10:14 PM
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
(06-09-2017 12:47 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  It's not the effective tax rate.
No corporation pays anything close to that.
Agreed, though in my defense I never claimed that it was.

(06-09-2017 12:47 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  And many pay zero.
I would expect their to be many that don't, that's not in it self that unusual given how taxes are determined in the US. but yes that aside there are some that absolutely pay less than the law demands they do, but the law also makes some demands that are a bit ..odd. We really should be cracking down on any corporations that violate the law.

(06-09-2017 12:47 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  And personally I don't feel any need to "justify" raising corporate taxes beyond noticing that they've been sucking the life blood out of US taxpayers for decades.
How so exactly? I think they should be paying more of a percent than they do now but I don't see how corporations, as a whole, have been "sucking the life blood of US taxpayers". I can definitely think of individual business and even whole industries *cough* banking *cough* that have been detrimental to the market and the people but most of those have been with the tacit or direct involvement of the government so I am not entirely sold on the idea of giving one of the partners in the "crime" more money. That a rather large can of worms though haha

That said I do feel like, if your going to pass law, you should be able to justify that law. Not saying we can't, I think we can absolutely, just that we should.

(06-09-2017 12:47 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  Washington has turned into a short stop over for our tax dollars before they get handed out to corporate donors and insiders while college costs spiral out of control and teachers get laid off and we generally they take a long piss all over the chumps that put up with it.
Trying to unpack all that would take me hours haha so I'm just going to say that I agree with some of it but not all of it. I CAN say more on the subject if you insist though Tongue

(06-09-2017 12:47 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  Corporate socialism is what we have now adays.
I agree for the most part. Free markets and "capitalism" is about profit and loss and voluntary exchange and we have so insanely undermined these core tenets, especially the loss part of profit and loss.

(06-09-2017 12:47 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  Fuck em.
I can always get behind this haha.

(06-09-2017 12:47 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  In the end people debate on and on about which sales pitch they like best.
The political class or the business class. Those are presented as the full range of "solutions" and neither is actually a solution.
They serve themselves and each other only.

I can't help but wonder what things would look like if we had the same separation of business and state as we do for church and state. Consider

Personally I don't think the political class or the business class has the answer, I think that the individual has the answer for the individual. I know my own needs and wants far better than a politician or CEO does, but alas history is rife with men who thinkt hey know better than other men how those men should live.

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06-09-2017, 10:16 PM
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
(06-09-2017 07:46 PM)ImFred Wrote:  Honestly, I don't think we can buy our way out of this problem.

Funds are wildly misallocated but the lack of student engagement is cultural for the students and a symptom of an antiquated and dying system of brick and mortar and compulsory attendance. If public education is structurally crooked, and it is, both figuratively and literally, then reinforcing the system already in place with even more funds only makes the problem worse. My view is only anecdotal but I don't only think American schools are substandard but so profoundly dysfunctional they're actually harmful. Pumping money into it without reform is like buying cars for people to fight traffic jams.

Fuckin' A, I couldn't agree more and it is what the data seems to support as well. That was really well said Thumbsup

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06-09-2017, 10:46 PM
RE: Shitty Schools Shitty Teachers Shitty Students
Whatever you pay the teachers are going to have the same shortcomings. A higher income would be great but no amount of talent and skill will change the fact that the students know that the institution does not give teachers the authority to do what it takes to control the class. Every class has about five kids who are going to yell and cuss pretty much the whole time and you can't touch them or have them removed. You can be Socrates, Batman, or Pol Pot. Your choice is between accepting a shitty classroom and keeping quiet about it or doing what it takes to fix the problem and get fired.

Teachers work in a bizarre fantasyland where every kid is cut out to succeed within certain confined parameters. Even though it's not really happening at all as long as you're good enough at pretending everything is fine you'll keep your job. If you start pressing the issue that your students aren't really being educated then you'll get fired.

Maybe you think with standardized testing it doesn't work like that but believe me it does.

There's adequate yearly progress. About 90% of the students I teach stop reaching that at around third grade. But even more disturbingly about 20% show negative growth from the previous year. I'm saying they come into class on the first day in 7th grade worse at math and reading than they were on first day of 6th grade. Not just further behind but actually in reverse. Maybe they didn't try on the standardized test? Perhaps, but the work samples I get confirm the official data. And the school I work at is in the middle of the pack.

A lot of people think testing is unfair to teachers at minority and low income schools. That's not really true because the official expectations for the "lower quartile" are so low that even the most modest gains from very few students will keep you within the margin of error in Value Added Model (VAM scores).
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