Shooting at Munich shopping mall
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24-07-2016, 11:54 PM
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(24-07-2016 07:49 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  ...
That graph shows that even among Democrats, the belief that guns make us safer is skyrocketing over the last 15 years.
...

Or does it show "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" defeatism / realism?

The guns are the symptoms.

Fear is the disease.

Rolleyes

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25-07-2016, 05:09 AM
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(24-07-2016 11:54 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 07:49 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  ...
That graph shows that even among Democrats, the belief that guns make us safer is skyrocketing over the last 15 years.
...

Or does it show "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" defeatism / realism?

The guns are the symptoms.

Fear is the disease.

Rolleyes

Fear is not a disease. It's a necessary evolved survival trait, without which humankind would have long ago become extinct.

Guns are simply a tool. Like any other tool, they can be misused.

A gun is an inanimate object. It does not influence people into action. What influences people to action - is other people.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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25-07-2016, 07:21 AM
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(25-07-2016 05:09 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 11:54 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Or does it show "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" defeatism / realism?

The guns are the symptoms.

Fear is the disease.

Rolleyes

Fear is not a disease. It's a necessary evolved survival trait, without which humankind would have long ago become extinct.
...

Whatever... the graph showed correlation not causation.

I think you misconstrued my nuance. I can clarify.

Actually, I was umming and ahing over whether to use management/governance language or the more familiar medical language. In hindsight, I should have used "incident" and "problem" rather than "symptom" and "disease" but I have a poetic tendency sometimes.

Correct, "fear is not a disease". That's not what I meant.

It (fear) and many other things (e.g. the appendix) are part of our evolutionary history. So what?

The cultural (memetic) version of "survival of the fittest" is antithetical to modern civilisation (and many forms of ancient civilisation for that matter). And I would go so far as to add that our ability to civilise ourselves is in inverse proportion to our ability to move away from our Darwinian heritage.

In other words, the more we can predict (or even control) our environment (resources, risks and rewards / ecological succession) the less fear (uncertainty / safety / security issues) should exist.

So of course, some environments present higher risks:
Syria
The Amazon jungle
The Wild West
Republican Conventions
Disney World Hotel, Florida
... so use whatever weapons and defense systems are most appropriate.

(25-07-2016 05:09 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  ...
Guns are simply a tool. Like any other tool, they can be misused.

A gun is an inanimate object. It does not influence people into action. What influences people to action - is other people.

Guns are killing tools. If there is a successful kill, they are not being misused. But, I guess you could say that death is simple. Dodgy

I disagree that a gun, even in its inanimate state of being in a holster or slung over a shoulder, does not influence action. For example, if a man with a gun walked into a McDonald's where I was having dinner with my children (this is hypothetical as my children are wise enough not to eat there), I would quietly get up and leave.

Or (another hypothetical) an on-edge police officer might shoot at an autistic man with a toy truck just because he 'thinks' the toy might be a gun.

And before you say that 'people' are also involved in those scenarios, I'll add that if I walked into that McDonald's and saw an unattended gun on one of the tables, I would report it to the manager and then leave.

So weapons (not just guns) do influence behaviour.

But perhaps we can compromise and say regarding weapons that "What influences people to action - is [fear of] other people".

Wink

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25-07-2016, 07:39 AM
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(24-07-2016 07:02 PM)SYZ Wrote:  In 2013 (in the US) 1,490 people were killed with bladed weapons versus 8,454 killed with firearms.

I find the "bladed weapons" number surprisingly high, considering that guns are more efficient, and because of that, would seem to be the weapon of choice if you want to kill someone. I'm not sure what conclusion to draw. Maybe one or both of my "considering" statements are less true than I think?
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25-07-2016, 07:45 AM
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(25-07-2016 07:39 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(24-07-2016 07:02 PM)SYZ Wrote:  In 2013 (in the US) 1,490 people were killed with bladed weapons versus 8,454 killed with firearms.

I find the "bladed weapons" number surprisingly high, considering that guns are more efficient, and because of that, would seem to be the weapon of choice if you want to kill someone. I'm not sure what conclusion to draw. Maybe one or both of my "considering" statements are less true than I think?

Do the gun deaths have suicides mixed in?

Bladed weapons usually indicate crimes of passion or defense. Is that survey broken down for aggressive actions and defensive actions? If I was in my kitchen and someone broke in and came at me, I would grab a big ol knife and defend myself...

The more statistics I look at (about any old topic) the less I trust them.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-07-2016, 07:55 AM
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(25-07-2016 07:45 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(25-07-2016 07:39 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  I find the "bladed weapons" number surprisingly high, considering that guns are more efficient, and because of that, would seem to be the weapon of choice if you want to kill someone. I'm not sure what conclusion to draw. Maybe one or both of my "considering" statements are less true than I think?

Do the gun deaths have suicides mixed in?

Bladed weapons usually indicate crimes of passion or defense. Is that survey broken down for aggressive actions and defensive actions? If I was in my kitchen and someone broke in and came at me, I would grab a big ol knife and defend myself...

The more statistics I look at (about any old topic) the less I trust them.

The anti-gun camp always counts suicides as "gun deaths"......

Why??

The numbers don't look good, if they don't...

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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25-07-2016, 08:03 AM
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(25-07-2016 07:55 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(25-07-2016 07:45 AM)Dom Wrote:  Do the gun deaths have suicides mixed in?

Bladed weapons usually indicate crimes of passion or defense. Is that survey broken down for aggressive actions and defensive actions? If I was in my kitchen and someone broke in and came at me, I would grab a big ol knife and defend myself...

The more statistics I look at (about any old topic) the less I trust them.

The anti-gun camp always counts suicides as "gun deaths"......

Why??

The numbers don't look good, if they don't...

Well, suicides will happen, guns or no guns. There are a lot of different ways to commit suicide. I don't think they belong in gun statistics. Or at least they should be identified.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-07-2016, 09:13 AM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2016 09:24 AM by epronovost.)
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(25-07-2016 08:03 AM)Dom Wrote:  Well, suicides will happen, guns or no guns. There are a lot of different ways to commit suicide. I don't think they belong in gun statistics. Or at least they should be identified.

Actualy there might be a small cause effect between availability of firearms and suicide. Suicide methods are highly ritualised and can vary from culture to culture and especially from men to women. Men prefer execution style suicide with gun death and hanging being the two favorites, while women prefer slower painless suicide methods like overdosing on somnifers or slitting their veins in a warm bath. Of course suicide by firearms are very efficient with 85% chances of success especially when compared to overdosing on sleeping pills.

The problem stems from the fact that a suicidal mindset isn't permanent. Sucidal urges come and go during a deeply depressive state. A strong deathwish isn't a constent state. You can be swarmed by the idea of killing yourself to end the pain for a few minutes or hours before reverting back to a state of helpless anguish without self destructive thought. A person armed with a gun can kill himself in roughly five minutes, the time for him to pick up is weapon, load it and discharge it. A person who wants to hang himself will need to find a sturdy rope (which most people don't have), find a supporting beem or pipe, make small research on internet to make a proper knot, set himself up and then make the fatal mouvement. All of this can take up to a few hours. By the time you are ready to hang yourself you might have lost temporarly your desire to die and delay your suicide. With a bit of luck someone will realise it and save you and pull the alarm to help you.

In other words, firearms are really good at killing quickly and efficiently so if you were to act on an impulse, you would succeed more often. Availability of firearms does create a problem for suicide prevention by making suicide easier and much accessible. Considering that suicide is about three times more frequent than murder that puts the problem in perspective...

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine-fe...dden-toll/

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/gun-sui...tatistics/

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25-07-2016, 09:26 AM
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(25-07-2016 09:13 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(25-07-2016 08:03 AM)Dom Wrote:  Well, suicides will happen, guns or no guns. There are a lot of different ways to commit suicide. I don't think they belong in gun statistics. Or at least they should be identified.

The problem stems from the fact that a suicidal mindset isn't permanent. Sucidal urges come and go during a deeply depressive state. A strong deathwish isn't a constent state. You can be swarmed by the idea of killing yourself to end the pain for a few minutes or hours before reverting back to a state of helpless anguish without self destructive thought.

Ok, this is really a topic for a thread of it's own and there is one someplace. But - just as quick comment - most suicides are not reported. If they can be covered up by loved ones, they will be. This accounts for the high number of gun suicides - they are just the ones that can't be covered up.

And there are many, many rational suicides that have nothing to do with depression.

But, this is really a different topic and I won't discuss in this thread...

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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25-07-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: Shooting at Munich shopping mall
(25-07-2016 09:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  But, this is really a different topic and I won't discuss in this thread...

Thank you! Thumbsup

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