Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
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02-04-2016, 05:51 AM
RE: Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(01-04-2016 03:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 07:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  That's interesting, I'm used to hearing atheists claims that infants are atheists, that other animals lack a belief in God. Now it seems that even absent of language they possibly could.

So I guess that means we'll no longer have to hear the common canard of how we're born atheists?

But to the point I was making. If another animal can contemplate a question with that degree of self-awareness of where he came from, a question that would require such a degree of contemplation, then he's probably right around the corner from getting a degree, or demanding equal rights, or a planet of the apes scenario.

I was raised in a very rustic, secluded mountainous area. No hot water, an outhouse for a bathroom, no TV or radio. Both my parents were non believers and religion simply wasn't discussed. It wasn't until I was about 9 years old that a god concept was introduced to me through a christmas song. Prior to that I had no idea of a god, there was nothing. God was non existent. I'd even go so far as to say I wasn't even in the default position because there was no position to be in when something doesn't exist.

A god is a similar situation to the unborn. They simply don't exist. The unborn weren't conceived so they aren't there. There is no "they" in the unborn. There is nothing. One has to create an imaginary person out of whole cloth to make a never born person real but they're only real in ones mind. This is similar to a god. It's a being who exists in the mind but only after introductions are made.

There's a variety of studies, that suggest that even children raised in non-religious homes, are prone to teleological beliefs, beliefs in a created order, such as believing pointy rocks exist for porcupines to scratch their back on.

Perhaps your an outlier to these observation, but the near universality of religious beliefs, indicates there something more at play here than whats taught, just as when it comes to morality.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-04-2016, 05:52 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2016 05:55 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(02-04-2016 05:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 05:37 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Can an infant without language contemplate where they came from?

Can a dolphin without language contemplate where they came from?


If they could, but they are unable to communicate that fact, how do you propose we find out? Facepalm

How did Atheists like Bucky and others find out that infants lack a belief in God, if they are unable to communicate that?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-04-2016, 06:48 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2016 07:01 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(02-04-2016 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 05:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If they could, but they are unable to communicate that fact, how do you propose we find out? Facepalm

How did Atheists like Bucky and others find out that infants lack a belief in God, if they are unable to communicate that?

How in the fuck would they *communicate* that, and what does that (inane) question even mean, and what does *belief* mean, if they have no language ?
Facepalm
Weeping
And why does Tommy pose the question in that fashion "Atheists like Bucky". Why does Tommy capitalize "atheists" ?
Bucky is no atheist. Bucky is an igtheist.

Quote:Perhaps your an outlier to these observation, but the near universality of religious beliefs, indicates there something more at play here than whats taught, just as when it comes to morality.

Un-fucking-believable.
He's STILL using the "ad populum" fallacy, presents NO EVIDENCE, for the assertion of "universality" (which is easily demonstrably false),
for both "religious beliefs" and the origins of "morality".
Do babies raised in homes where the parents don't believe in bullshit religions spontaneously awake one day and say "Oh Jebus, I believe" ?
Tommy, do your EVER plan on getting an education and learning about the CULTURAL origins of "morality" (Anthropology 101), or do you plan on just inflicting your ignorant bullshit on the world, for the rest of your life ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-04-2016, 06:52 AM
Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(02-04-2016 06:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  How did Atheists like Bucky and others find out that infants lack a belief in God, if they are unable to communicate that?

How in the fuck would they *communicate* that, and what does that (inane) question even mean, and what does *belief* mean, if they have no language ?
Facepalm
Weeping


What does a question mean if they don't have language? How would a dolphin be able to contemplate its origin if it lacks the language to do so?

You assume because of this, a child and infant lacks a belief in God. As opposed to we don't know whether they lack a belief in God or not.

If this were true wouldn't it also follow that a dolphin lacks the ability to contemplate questions about his origin?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-04-2016, 07:11 AM
RE: Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(02-04-2016 06:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 06:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  How in the fuck would they *communicate* that, and what does that (inane) question even mean, and what does *belief* mean, if they have no language ?
Facepalm
Weeping


What does a question mean if they don't have language? How would a dolphin be able to contemplate its origin if it lacks the language to do so?

You assume because of this, a child and infant lacks a belief in God. As opposed to we don't know whether they lack a belief in God or not.

If this were true wouldn't it also follow that a dolphin lacks the ability to contemplate questions about his origin?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropolo...-kindness/

You evaded the questions I asked, by asking yet more (inane) ones, (your usual schtick). I asked you what "belief" means, (or would mean), in the absence of language. Answer the question. (I said nothing about dolphins. BTW, dolphins DO have language.)

We already know you can ask an endless series of stupid questions.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-04-2016, 07:15 AM
Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(02-04-2016 07:11 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 06:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What does a question mean if they don't have language? How would a dolphin be able to contemplate its origin if it lacks the language to do so?

You assume because of this, a child and infant lacks a belief in God. As opposed to we don't know whether they lack a belief in God or not.

If this were true wouldn't it also follow that a dolphin lacks the ability to contemplate questions about his origin?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropolo...-kindness/

You evaded the questions I asked, by asking yet more (inane) ones, (your usual schtick). I asked you what "belief" means, (or would mean), in the absence of language. Answer the question. (I said nothing about dolphins. BTW, dolphins DO have language.)


No you claimed that infants lack a belief in God, appealing to the fact that they lack a language. That without language they can't have beliefs. This was your suggestion.

Isn't that right?

I didn't argue with you, I just asked some more questions, particularly in light of what others here suggested about Dolphins.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-04-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(02-04-2016 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 05:46 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If they could, but they are unable to communicate that fact, how do you propose we find out? Facepalm

How did Atheists like Bucky and others find out that infants lack a belief in God, if they are unable to communicate that?

Personal experience and then asking other humans.

C’mon, too easy.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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02-04-2016, 07:41 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2016 07:49 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(02-04-2016 07:15 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-04-2016 07:11 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropolo...-kindness/

You evaded the questions I asked, by asking yet more (inane) ones, (your usual schtick). I asked you what "belief" means, (or would mean), in the absence of language. Answer the question. (I said nothing about dolphins. BTW, dolphins DO have language.)


No you claimed that infants lack a belief in God, appealing to the fact that they lack a language. That without language they can't have beliefs. This was your suggestion.

Isn't that right?

I didn't argue with you, I just asked some more questions, particularly in light of what others here suggested about Dolphins.

No. I ASKED YOU (in light of YOUR "universality" assertion) what "belief MEANS, in the absence of language". Answer the question.

Next, answer the question "how the thousands gods and belief systems, (which ALL, IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE) ARISE in culturally relative environments, somehow affirms that YOUR religion is the right one ?"

I know you asked more questions. That's all you ever do. How about stop playing your idiotic game, and answer some, for once.

Then tell us what a "belief" is, and tell us how you think that "got into the brain of the infant" ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-04-2016, 07:55 AM
RE: Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(02-04-2016 05:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-04-2016 03:53 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I was raised in a very rustic, secluded mountainous area. No hot water, an outhouse for a bathroom, no TV or radio. Both my parents were non believers and religion simply wasn't discussed. It wasn't until I was about 9 years old that a god concept was introduced to me through a christmas song. Prior to that I had no idea of a god, there was nothing. God was non existent. I'd even go so far as to say I wasn't even in the default position because there was no position to be in when something doesn't exist.

A god is a similar situation to the unborn. They simply don't exist. The unborn weren't conceived so they aren't there. There is no "they" in the unborn. There is nothing. One has to create an imaginary person out of whole cloth to make a never born person real but they're only real in ones mind. This is similar to a god. It's a being who exists in the mind but only after introductions are made.

There's a variety of studies, that suggest that even children raised in non-religious homes, are prone to teleological beliefs, beliefs in a created order, such as believing pointy rocks exist for porcupines to scratch their back on.

Perhaps your an outlier to these observation, but the near universality of religious beliefs, indicates there something more at play here than whats taught, just as when it comes to morality.

And your confirmation bias leads you to believe that a predisposition to believing in pattern and order means anything other than humans (like a lot of other animals) are pattern-seeking and pattern-recognizing animals.

If you want to keep making these asinine allusions to a god belief because of evolved biology, you're going to need to actually provide evidence for your god instead of just asserting it's true because your small mind can't conceive of another answer. Laugh out load

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02-04-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: Shortcomings of the "probability of life" argument
(02-04-2016 07:41 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  No. I ASKED YOU (in light of YOUR "universality" assertion) what "belief MEANS, in the absence of language". Answer the question.

Since I never claimed that individuals who lack a language, can believe anything, I'm not sure why you're directing that question at me? As if I'm suppose to have an answer for that.

Perhaps you should be directing that question at those who assume that it's possible that animals like Dolphins are able to contemplate where they came from, without language.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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