Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
11-07-2016, 01:29 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 01:20 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 01:15 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except that is not what your dumbass was doing, you were making an appeal to authority. Only Cops can have opinions on this subject. Which, of course, is utter bullshit. Now the only question left is are you really this fucking stupid or are you just dishonest? I lean towards just that stupid given the plethora of evidence you have left over this board.


Spin away, genius.....

I try seeing it from the other side -- seeing I've got a couple of friends and neighbors that ARE cops (as were a few relatives) .....

You I suspect, are more comfortable around reactionaries, protestors and other malcontents.......................

......

Just stay on your side of the fence...

Ah another brief glimpse inside that post-apocalyptic wasteland that is your head. In your retort you again make an appeal to authority and show your bias in one sentence. This country was founded by "reactionaries, protestors and other malcontents" the tools like you were known as loyalists. But you've never let facts or reality get in the way of your blatant ignorance, now have you?

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
11-07-2016, 01:37 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 09:34 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  several studies have shown that police tend to view black youth (especially) as older, more dangerous, more criminal, and more threatening than whites, it leads to problematic outcomes, only one of which is death by firing squad.

Statistically young black men are 8 times more likely to commit a murder than are young white men. Citation here. I'd like to see look at those studies though.


Quote:It doesn't matter that it also happens to white people. It matters that there's a difference between the standard interaction with one group versus another, the same as can be shown in the justice system's outcome for a black defendant versus a white one, in terms of severity of sentence for the same crime. If a person responded to that with "but white people go to prison, too!", we'd rightfully look at them like they lost their minds.

Right. The correct response is, "Yeah, people go to prison longer when they are repeat-offenders." Black men are more often repeat offenders then are white men. Also, even if this were not the case. (it is) it is a fallacy to insert an explanative cause for an outcome - the outcome being black men receiving, in general, longer sentences then white men for comparable crimes - just because there is a lack of a different explanative cause. That is to say you have not demonstrated that the interactions differ where they shouldn't.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Gilgamesh's post
11-07-2016, 01:38 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
C'mon, Rev, try to be more civil. Please.

I think more accurately, he was trying to imply that people who have not had the experiences cops have, in trying to uphold the law and policies of the US/states/cities, do not understand "what's really going on". It's a fair assertion, which deserves a fair reply.

That reply is that we do understand what cops face, and the realities of resistance to the militarized police force and corrupt (demonstrably racist, even if not intentionally so) court systems that cause the tensions between the police and the policed to endlessly escalate into violence on both sides. We understand why cops so frequently step over the line. It's that understanding that leads us to question the necessity and fairness of the cops' entire approach to policing. We all want solutions to the problem-- those of us who admit there is a problem, that is.

The difference is that we cannot realistically ask random people who constitute the communities who feel they are being targeted and subjected to unfair treatment to start trusting cops (thereby reducing the problems in encounters with cops, on their end), but we can ask the organized professionals of the police forces to change their entire approach, when we see the old one causes as many problems as it solves, in light of the fact that the hostile "russspek mah authoritah!!" approach is not required (and not used in other places) in order to effect the needs of the community for good policing. When the people believe in the system, the system will work better, but you cannot demand organized change among people in the face of an organization that too often treats certain groups of people as if they are inferiors, as if they are subjects of the king rather than equal citizens with dignity and inherent rights.

Heck, watch the dozens of videos on YouTube about what cops do when someone (especially someone of color) asserts their rights under law, the facial expressions of the police who are asked to uphold those rights in the face of the cop's desire to do whatever he pleases, and watch the attempts to intimidate them into giving up those rights and/or the retaliation that comes to those who do. This is something I have seen first hand in numerous ways, even though I have no inherent problem with authority and am a WASP of middle-class upbringing (in large part because I do not wholly conform to that image or societal outlook).

All of this is information we need to process. What we DO NOT need to do is strawman the opposite argument or pretend that the issue is black-and-white (no pun intended), when the realities of it are complex and entrenched. Yet that's almost all I ever see, on both sides.

I'm particularly irritated by those who do things like point to the BLM people who "hid behind the cops" when the sniper started firing, and calling it "ironic", which implies that BLM people hate police or want them to stop doing their jobs. The BLM want the police to change for the better, not to go away. It takes a particularly myopic outlook on the part of some (doubtlessly white) asshole to even assert that there's an irony in the BLM people wanting the police to protect them. They WANT the police to protect them in the same way that they protect others, which is the point of the movement. I think Michael Wood gives a very good explanation of why people don't just "feel" this is not the case, currently, but are telling the truth about the difference in the way middle/upper class people (or those with MC/UC values) see the cops versus how the communities being deliberately targeted for harassment by the police see the concept of policing.

And these are perspectives we desperately need to consider.

TL;dr - Calm down. We are not ill-informed on how policing works, nor ignorant of the dangers cops face. No one says cops are all bad, only that the culture of how we approach policing in the United States is due for some major upgrades.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
11-07-2016, 01:50 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 01:37 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Statistically young black men are 8 times more likely to commit a murder than are young white men. Citation here. I'd like to see look at those studies though.

"Statistically", young black men are also significantly more likely to live in poverty, or in otherwise damaged socioeconomic communities, with predictable outcomes. That's nothing to do with what I was asserting, here.

Your ignorance is not my problem. Saying you'd "like to see those studies" implies I can't provide them, or that they don't exist...I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your Google Search bar isn't working, so I'll provide you with one link: http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2...older.aspx

(11-07-2016 01:37 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Right. The correct response is, "Yeah, people go to prison longer when they are repeat-offenders." Black men are more often repeat offenders then are white men. Also, even if this were not the case. (it is) it is a fallacy to insert an explanative cause for an outcome - the outcome being black men receiving, in general, longer sentences then white men for comparable crimes - just because there is a lack of a different explanative cause. That is to say you have not demonstrated that the interactions differ where they shouldn't.

Except you're full of shit.

"In the two years after the Booker ruling, sentences of blacks were on average 15.2% longer than the sentences of similarly situated whites, according to the Sentencing Commission report. Between December 2007 and September 2011, the most recent period covered in the report, sentences of black males were 19.5% longer than those for whites. The analysis also found that black males were 25% less likely than whites in the same period to receive a sentence below the guidelines' range."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412...3789858002

Bold emphasis my own. "Similarly situated" means they took into account prior records when calculating the overall outcomes. When you fix your Google Search bar, you can look for yourself to find other examinations of this question. Simply put, when a white defendant with the same criminal background and offense faces a judge, he is likely to be sentenced less harshly than an identical defendant with a tan.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
11-07-2016, 01:58 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 01:29 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 01:20 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Spin away, genius.....

I try seeing it from the other side -- seeing I've got a couple of friends and neighbors that ARE cops (as were a few relatives) .....

You I suspect, are more comfortable around reactionaries, protestors and other malcontents.......................

......

Just stay on your side of the fence...

Ah another brief glimpse inside that post-apocalyptic wasteland that is your head. In your retort you again make an appeal to authority and show your bias in one sentence. This country was founded by "reactionaries, protestors and other malcontents" the tools like you were known as loyalists. But you've never let facts or reality get in the way of your blatant ignorance, now have you?

Quit trying to pretend you know anything about me.....

You don't.

You don't know the experiences I've had, the shit that I've seen - and you most CERTAINLY don't have a window into my head.

You are however proving yourself to be a narcissistic, conceited little man who believes he knows what's best for the rest of the world.

In fact -- you're just another random asshole who's got a computer and an opinion....

Just like me, and every other poster on this board.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-07-2016, 02:00 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
Caution! Anecdotal!

I had occasion to hang around with cops two days a week for several years.

Each city has their own cop culture. The department's attitudes and practices can vary enormously. You guys are making the mistake we all oppose vehemently often - you are generalizing and throwing them all in the same pot. They are as different as night and day, depending on where they work.

In some areas, it's a decent job. The not so fun parts they face everywhere are domestic violence, feuds among neighbors and traffic accidents. Death reports. The usually easy parts are traffic violations, welfare checks, burglaries and disorderly conducts.

In many areas, any kind of shooting is super rare. In other areas, they occur daily. In some areas cops are an authority and people just cooperate and cops expect that and are not nervous.

In other areas, like inner city, cops are exposed to violence all the time, on a daily basis, and these cops are jumpy. They can and do get hurt in the course of duty. They try to be vigilant, and they try to anticipate what is going to happen next. They are like combat soldiers.

Cops exposed to lots of violence also become calloused. We all would, it's a human defense mechanism. Cop humor can be quite disconcerting in such areas, but is also a defense mechanism.

It has nothing to do with black, white or Hispanic or whatever cops. It has to do with the environment they work in every day.

Their reactions for the most part are just plain human. But, of course, you have your bad eggs. The job does attract it's share of swaggering, power drunken nitwits. They do tend to get weeded out though. If that doesn't happen, you end up with a rogue department. That is an exception and not the rule.

That's my experience with cops. They are just people and they react to their environment.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Dom's post
11-07-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 10:45 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 10:10 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I agree with the thrust of the points you make for the most part. My own personal experience tells me a different story; but I attribute it to the fact that these incidents, as prominent as they seem, are relatively rare. I am willing to allow they are much much more common in the inner cities and nearby areas.

The last point you make, has been borne out, just by watching youtube. Since the emergence videos of cop killings and violence, it is obvious to me that the police in the US seem have a training that leads them to treat the population at large(black, white, red, brown) as an enemy. They simply cannot countenance that they can be in the wrong and change their minds even when it is obvious.

When you see cops violently slam people(of all backgrounds), including expectant mothers, on the ground or the hood of a car. Even when they are cooperating or clearly confused but not uncooperative. Gratuitous violence. Worse than even in some third world countries. How that improves their own safety is beyond me.

Go join a police force in a major US city.....

Come back in a year, and tell us if your opinion has changed......

Any takers?????

Join the Crips in any major city. Get back to us in a year.

Are you a taker?

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-07-2016, 02:05 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
LOL....

I'm a gimp already, so I'm already there....

Handicap plate and all..

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like onlinebiker's post
11-07-2016, 02:09 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 02:05 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  LOL....

I'm a gimp already, so I'm already there....

Handicap plate and all..

Tongue

I see what you did there.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-07-2016, 02:24 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 01:50 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  "Statistically", young black men are also significantly more likely to live in poverty, or in otherwise damaged socioeconomic communities, with predictable outcomes. That's nothing to do with what I was asserting, here.

Never said otherwise. And yes, it does have to do with what you were asserting. You asserted that - and I quote - "police tend to view black youth (especially) as older, more dangerous, more criminal, and more threatening than whites." That black youth also commit violent crimes far more often is absolutely relevant to that assertion. That they're more likely to be impoverished is also relevant to that assertion. How isn't it lol?

Quote:Your ignorance is not my problem.

What, specifically, am I ignorant of..?

Quote:Saying you'd "like to see those studies" implies I can't provide them, or that they don't exist...I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your Google Search bar isn't working, so I'll provide you with one link: http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2...older.aspx

No, it doesn't. Implication can only be perceived; not given. Anyway, I was being genuine. I wanted to see the specific studies you were referring to. Thank you for pulling one up.

Quote:Except you're full of shit.

"In the two years after the Booker ruling, sentences of blacks were on average 15.2% longer than the sentences of similarly situated whites, according to the Sentencing Commission report. Between December 2007 and September 2011, the most recent period covered in the report, sentences of black males were 19.5% longer than those for whites. The analysis also found that black males were 25% less likely than whites in the same period to receive a sentence below the guidelines' range."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412...3789858002

Bold emphasis my own. "Similarly situated" means they took into account prior records when calculating the overall outcomes.

No, it doesn't. The article you linked does not even source the study, so that can't be verified, you fucking idiot lol. How about you link the raw statistics instead of a poorly written article? Dumbass.

Quote: Simply put, when a white defendant with the same criminal background and offense faces a judge, he is likely to be sentenced less harshly than an identical defendant with a tan.

You have not demonstrated this.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Gilgamesh's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: