Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
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11-07-2016, 03:02 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 02:24 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
Quote:"In the two years after the Booker ruling, sentences of blacks were on average 15.2% longer than the sentences of similarly situated whites, according to the Sentencing Commission report. Between December 2007 and September 2011, the most recent period covered in the report, sentences of black males were 19.5% longer than those for whites. The analysis also found that black males were 25% less likely than whites in the same period to receive a sentence below the guidelines' range."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412...3789858002

Bold emphasis my own. "Similarly situated" means they took into account prior records when calculating the overall outcomes.

No, it doesn't. The article you linked does not even source the study, so that can't be verified, you fucking idiot lol. How about you link the raw statistics instead of a poorly written article? Dumbass.

Quote: Simply put, when a white defendant with the same criminal background and offense faces a judge, he is likely to be sentenced less harshly than an identical defendant with a tan.

You have not demonstrated this.

Yes, I did.

What part of "the Sentencing Commission report" was unclear?

The Sentencing Commission demonstrated this. Did you not read where it said that? Did you not understand what the US Sentencing Commission is?

Who's the dumbass, again?

Edit to Add: Since you seem to be ignorant of how it works, the Sentencing Commission is the group that makes recommended sentence grids, based on criminal background, severity of the crime, and numerous other factors. Thus, when a person (or group of people) is sentenced above or below the guidelines, it reflects on whether or not that person was sentenced more harshly, or less, than others, and in comparison to the recommendation. These data are freely available to those with Google. Dumbass.

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11-07-2016, 03:12 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
Oh, and...

(11-07-2016 02:24 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Never said otherwise. And yes, it does have to do with what you were asserting. You asserted that - and I quote - "police tend to view black youth (especially) as older, more dangerous, more criminal, and more threatening than whites." That black youth also commit violent crimes far more often is absolutely relevant to that assertion. That they're more likely to be impoverished is also relevant to that assertion. How isn't it lol?

Because the study, if you had bothered to read about it, did not test poverty or any other factors. It tested how police estimated the ages of and the degree of danger perception with respect to black youths versus white ones, in general.

The poverty of an individual is relevant to how likely they are they are to commit crimes related to poverty- including violence and murder, white or black. It just so happens that black youth are more likely to belong to the extreme poverty category where such violence is epidemic, especially in long-neglected urban cores. A white person in that situation is just as prone... they're just less likely to be in that situation.

It is not relevant to how police perceive an average black man, and the fact that you cannot understand the difference speaks as much to your prejudices as to theirs.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-07-2016, 03:36 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 03:02 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 02:24 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  No, it doesn't. The article you linked does not even source the study, so that can't be verified, you fucking idiot lol. How about you link the raw statistics instead of a poorly written article? Dumbass.


You have not demonstrated this.

Yes, I did.

No, you didn't.

Quote:What part of "the Sentencing Commission report" was unclear?

The Sentencing Commission demonstrated this. Did you not read where it said that? Did you not understand what the US Sentencing Commission is?

Who's the dumbass, again?

Still you.. You have not contradicted anything I've said thus far lol.

Your article did not source the studies data sheets. Neither did you. Even after I told you to.. You linked to an organisations homepage..

For future reference - and I find myself saying this so often - link the data outright.

I have now done your work for you and verified that the number purported by your original article does accurately represent the data. And, that in fact, they did arrive at that number by faithfully comparing whites with parallel blacks.
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11-07-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 03:36 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 03:02 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  What part of "the Sentencing Commission report" was unclear?

The Sentencing Commission demonstrated this. Did you not read where it said that? Did you not understand what the US Sentencing Commission is?

Who's the dumbass, again?

Still you.. You have not contradicted anything I've said thus far lol.

Your article did not source the studies data sheets. Neither did you. Even after I told you to.. You linked to an organisations homepage..

For future reference - and I find myself saying this so often - link the data outright.

I have now done your work for you and verified that the number purported by your original article does accurately represent the data. And, that in fact, they did arrive at that number by faithfully comparing whites with parallel blacks.

These data are well known to anyone who has bothered to study sociology and/or criminology, or even to read a couple of books on the subject.

It's not my job to link you to more specific data because you desire it... to do your work for you. I referenced a legitimate media outlet (the Wall Street Journal), which referenced an official government report on the data. You are the only person here who feels that is an unreasonable amount of verification of my claim.

I linked to the organization's homepage because you didn't appear to understand what I was saying, or why I was able to state with such certainty that black defendants were sentenced more harshly than similarly situated whites. Clearly, you needed some help to clear up your ignorance.

Continuing to declare that I did not demonstrate my premises does not make you look any better. Now, since you appear to have repaired your Google Search bar, I invite you to continue learning, and to look up raw data to your heart's content.

For future reference - and I find myself saying this so often - do your own homework. At no point will that involve me doing your work for you, or acceding to your demands.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-07-2016, 06:15 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
I think RocketSurgeon's point here (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that blacks are not treated equally to whites, and certainly not black males. And, I think a secondary point is you can't look at things like murder rates in a vacuum and not consider the other socioeconomic factors. As an example, in the history of the US, has there ever been a black teenage defendant who got away with killing multiple people for something as fucked up as "because his parents spoiled him"?? I've not gone out and checked on every possibility so maybe there is a case out there, but I'd be shocked. But, you have a spoiled little white fuck who kills 4 people and successfully argues "affluenza", whatever the fuck that is. Black kids who argue "broken home, drug infested neighborhood" end up in jail for killing people. And, I'd defy anyone to find a probation recommendation for an inner city black kid that sending him to jail for raping a drunk college student would mess up his life and he should get 6 months with time off for good behavior/not raping anyone else for 3 months.

There is a difference in how people are treated. There is a whole lot of evidence on it. There are books written on it. If you want to get some idea of what the situation actually is, 2 books I'd recommend are:

Crook County: Racism and Injustice in America's Largest Criminal Court by Nicole Gonzalez Van Cleve and The Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap by Matt Taibbi. Either one of them is a real eye opener. Of the two, I'd recommend the Taibbi book. He's got a way of writing that really keeps you engaged. I'd also recommend Griftopia by Taibbi but that is a different topic.

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11-07-2016, 07:33 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 02:24 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Implication can only be perceived; not given.

Forgive my pedantry, but implication is given; inference is taken.

/petpeeveitis
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12-07-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 09:34 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Because several studies have shown that police tend to view black youth (especially) as older, more dangerous, more criminal, and more threatening than whites ...
Citation please.

Quote:Look at every video you've ever seen of a cop shooting a black man, and try to imagine that happening to a white guy.
I have, and it did. Five times in Dallas.

Quote:It doesn't matter that it also happens to white people. It matters that there's a difference between the standard interaction with one group versus another, the same as can be shown in the justice system's outcome for a black defendant versus a white one, in terms of severity of sentence for the same crime.
Citation?

Quote:And as a white person who has had several bad interactions with police (mainly because I had long hair and/or ride a motorcycle in black leathers), as well as a 9-year resident of the prison system, I agree that the American approach to policing needs a major revision.
Sour grapes? Or were you genuinely wrongly imprisoned?

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12-07-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 07:33 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 02:24 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Implication can only be perceived; not given.

Forgive my pedantry, but implication is given; inference is taken.

/petpeeveitis
Well well well, look who's being a pedant now... Tongue

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12-07-2016, 01:34 PM
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(11-07-2016 06:15 PM)BnW Wrote:  I think RocketSurgeon's point here (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that blacks are not treated equally to whites, and certainly not black males. And, I think a secondary point is you can't look at things like murder rates in a vacuum and not consider the other socioeconomic factors. As an example, in the history of the US, has there ever been a black teenage defendant who got away with killing multiple people for something as fucked up as "because his parents spoiled him"?? I've not gone out and checked on every possibility so maybe there is a case out there, but I'd be shocked. But, you have a spoiled little white fuck who kills 4 people and successfully argues "affluenza", whatever the fuck that is. Black kids who argue "broken home, drug infested neighborhood" end up in jail for killing people. And, I'd defy anyone to find a probation recommendation for an inner city black kid that sending him to jail for raping a drunk college student would mess up his life and he should get 6 months with time off for good behavior/not raping anyone else for 3 months.

There is a difference in how people are treated. There is a whole lot of evidence on it. There are books written on it. If you want to get some idea of what the situation actually is, 2 books I'd recommend are:

Crook County: Racism and Injustice in America's Largest Criminal Court by Nicole Gonzalez Van Cleve and The Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap by Matt Taibbi. Either one of them is a real eye opener. Of the two, I'd recommend the Taibbi book. He's got a way of writing that really keeps you engaged. I'd also recommend Griftopia by Taibbi but that is a different topic.

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12-07-2016, 03:52 PM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2016 03:57 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Shots fired in Dallas during protest.
(12-07-2016 12:53 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(11-07-2016 09:34 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Because several studies have shown that police tend to view black youth (especially) as older, more dangerous, more criminal, and more threatening than whites ...
Citation please.

I already did cite this, a few posts ago, but I'll repeat for you.

My previous citation:
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2...older.aspx

Because there has been some effort by conservative organizations to "massage" the data in order to justify the killing disparity (or deny it), here's also a good breakdown of the various studies (and their flaws, such as automatically calling a killing "justified" if the victim was a felon) here:

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/11/12148452/po...cism-study

(12-07-2016 12:53 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
Quote:Look at every video you've ever seen of a cop shooting a black man, and try to imagine that happening to a white guy.
I have, and it did. Five times in Dallas.

Are you suggesting the sniper attack against police in Dallas was similar to the videos I reference? I'm not sure I follow you.

(12-07-2016 12:53 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
Quote:It doesn't matter that it also happens to white people. It matters that there's a difference between the standard interaction with one group versus another, the same as can be shown in the justice system's outcome for a black defendant versus a white one, in terms of severity of sentence for the same crime.
Citation?

Again, I did cite this previously, but here you go:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1000142412...3789858002

See also the difference in sentencing when the perpetrator is black and the victim is white, versus the contrary:

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/r...sentencing


(12-07-2016 12:53 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
Quote:And as a white person who has had several bad interactions with police (mainly because I had long hair and/or ride a motorcycle in black leathers), as well as a 9-year resident of the prison system, I agree that the American approach to policing needs a major revision.
Sour grapes? Or were you genuinely wrongly imprisoned?

Why would it be sour grapes if I was rightly imprisoned? I'd have done the crime and then done the time. Social contract. No harm, no foul. Most inmates feel that way, despite movies portraying the opposite attitude.

I'm a little offended by the suggestion that the only reason I'd have an issue with police overreach would be because I've been prosecuted.

But to answer your question, yes, I was wrongly imprisoned. I was wrongfully imprisoned over something that's not even illegal in most states anymore, and it was eventually overturned on appeal. The prosecution's amazing ability to delay things made it last 9 years... which is, sadly, not unusual. The police were polite and kind to me, as were most of my prison guards... it was only the guards in the county jail who were any sort of issue, once they decided they wanted me to testify against people (who didn't exist, but they didn't know that), and began to use psychological torture tactics to try to gain my compliance.

ETA: I'd also like to invite you to examine your own prejudices. Your responses to my posts have always been that of a total ally, right up until the moment you learned I was a felon (or so you thought).

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