Should America Support Israel?
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28-07-2014, 09:03 PM
Should America Support Israel?
Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.
In 2008, up to 27th Dec., the home-made rockets that Hamas fired into Israel killedd no-one. In return the Israelis killed 400 children and 900 adults in Gaza.

I don't see how Israel has the right to kick the Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses, kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them.It is a nation that stole its land through military force. I hear so many evangelicals and fundamentalists claiming that we have to give money to Israel because the Bible says "bless israel and you shall be blessed, curse israel and you shall be cursed". What a shitcrock!

Now the Palestinians are imprisoned in the shithole Gaza Strip and forced west as israelis keep expanding into the west bank.

Okay, so, it's true that Hamas fired rockets at Israel so that must justify an invasion and killing hundreds of innocent people. Yeah if some idiots fired rockets from Mexico into Texas that justifies invading Mexico and killing hundreds of children right?

Without America (and others) funding Israel would the nation wouldnt exist.
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29-07-2014, 04:11 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Hamas and Israel both need their arses kicked!HoboYes

" Of course I doubt, I practise faith, not certainty.'
Robert Brault.
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29-07-2014, 04:15 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
I wrote an argumentative essay in Highschool on the conflict between Israel and Palestine. I can't remember much, but IIRC Palestinians had the land first, then Israel came in like, "Hey, dis be our holy land bizzzznatches!" Thus the conflict began.
(I could be wrong, and if so please feel free to correct me.)

That being said, eff Israel. Eff military intervention in other nations in general.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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29-07-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(29-07-2014 04:15 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I wrote an argumentative essay in Highschool on the conflict between Israel and Palestine. I can't remember much, but IIRC Palestinians had the land first, then Israel came in like, "Hey, dis be our holy land bizzzznatches!" Thus the conflict began.
(I could be wrong, and if so please feel free to correct me.)

That being said, eff Israel. Eff military intervention in other nations in general.

Yes, you are about as fundamentally wrong as you could be. This thread has a very in depth look at how the situation came to be.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...and-Israel

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

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29-07-2014, 04:20 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Guess my sources in HS were wrong Thumbsup

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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29-07-2014, 04:50 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(28-07-2014 09:03 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.
In 2008, up to 27th Dec., the home-made rockets that Hamas fired into Israel killedd no-one. In return the Israelis killed 400 children and 900 adults in Gaza.

I don't see how Israel has the right to kick the Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses, kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them.It is a nation that stole its land through military force. I hear so many evangelicals and fundamentalists claiming that we have to give money to Israel because the Bible says "bless israel and you shall be blessed, curse israel and you shall be cursed". What a shitcrock!

Now the Palestinians are imprisoned in the shithole Gaza Strip and forced west as israelis keep expanding into the west bank.

Okay, so, it's true that Hamas fired rockets at Israel so that must justify an invasion and killing hundreds of innocent people. Yeah if some idiots fired rockets from Mexico into Texas that justifies invading Mexico and killing hundreds of children right?

Without America (and others) funding Israel would the nation wouldnt exist.

There is no justification for Israel's actions, nor for any civilised country to fund them. Why does it happen then? Firstly politics, if people are gonna benefit from backing Israel why let a few measly war-crimes stand in the way? Secondly politics, anyone who doesn't back Israel is clearly an anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi who wants to establish a second holocaust against the Jews. It isn't possible for them to simply disagree with the actions of Israel without worshipping Hitler.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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29-07-2014, 06:18 PM
Re: Should America Support Israel?
Well if America wants the temple back in the hands of the chosen people for the second vomit(my phone typoed that and I'm leaving it) of Christ, then yes.

Do they deserve support based in actions for several decades now? No

"Love is hot, Truth is molten!"
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29-07-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
No, we should support Islamism, extremism and antisemitism. We should support the people who fire rockets at women and children while hiding behind their own women and children.
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29-07-2014, 07:02 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Wicked Clown:

Clearly you have not been initiated into Hamas Philosophy.

Hamas has a similar doctrine to Al-Shabab, Taliban, Buku-Haram, ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, muslim brotherhood etc....These are some of the most horrid regimes possible.
Hamas would also "not exist" if it was not funded with billions of dollars from regimes such as Qatar, Iran and now even buying arms & Tunnel technology from North Korea.
The reason why Gaza is a shit hole is because it is ruled by Hamas - a totalitarian fascist regime who's doctrine is completely antithetical to caring for its own civilian populations needs (and any western values - but thats obvious). The tunnel complexes under Gaza are some 20 to 40 m deep running a few kilometers long reinforced with concrete, sewage systems, ventilation and sophisticated booby traps such as explosives at the entrances of civilian homes, civil buildings, mosques & schools. The only purpose for the tunnels into Israel are not for an underground system but to create terror attacks on Israeli civilians. Gazan's complain of not being able to import building materials due to a blockade - guess who uses all the building materials & keeps its civilian population in poverty ? Yes Hamas.
Hamas and other groups such as Islamic Jihad OPENLY state in their speeches that it is Jihad Martydom for civilians to protect military assets and consequently schools, mosques and other civilian buildings are used to shield military equipment, rockets and militants.


Guess when Gaza was prospering ? In the 1980's & early 1990's tens of thousands of Palestinian workers entered Israel for work - earning higher salaries than any of the other local countries (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon) - Ironically they has jobs in the cities now being attacked by Hamas rockets (Ashdod,Ashkilon,Sdorot and Tel-Aviv) The border to Israel was closed in the mid/late 1990's after multiple suicide bombings in Israeli buses, Markets, cafeterias etc led to hundreds of Israeli civilian deaths. After the border to Israel was closed suicide bombings on the Israeli coast leading away from Gaza fell to almost zero.
The Egyptian border was still open - however Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 allowing complete Palestinian sovereignty. After a Hamas coup d'etat took over Gaza in 2007 with Hamas killing over a hundred Palestinians any international monitoring agencies were removed from the Egyptian border and consequently Israel pressurized Egypt to seal the border to prevent military supplies for Hamas terrorism. The other goal was to make Hamas capitulate under the economic pressure and allow Palestinians aligned with Fatah shared rule of Gaza. However Hamas found a way of building tunnels and taxing supply revenue's from Egypt to bypass the blockade. Hamas is completely responsible for the shit hole of Gaza's situation. Blaming israel is just a scapegoat propaganda tool used by Hamas for media attention.

Also:
The fact that there is a higher civilian casualty rate in Gaza than Israel does not give Hamas the moral high ground - its not an equation based on numbers, that is appalling moral philosophy. Numbers of casualties don't tell you anything about intentions, who initiates a conflict, using civilians as human shields and methods used to protect civilians.
Eg: In the 1st Gulf war Iraq has some 40 x the casualties including many civilians than the coalition to remove saddam from Kuwait (in fact the coalition has zero civilian casualties from USA/NATO etc) - does that make Saddam's invasion of Kuwait "40 x more moral" - clearly this is absurd.

Also to put perspective on the Media - In Iraq in July 2014 some 1,300 civilians have been killed (https://www.iraqbodycount.org) and likewise in Syria (http://www.iamsyria.org/daily-death-count.html) - and this has been going on for YEARS ! Hardly any media footage of muslims butchering each other on a massive scale - in the 100,000's ! Each day sometimes double the death toll in Gaza AND NO MEDIA COVERAGE. Any media coverage of the brutal massacre of Zoro-Astrian Kurds in Mosul and Exodus of Christians threatened with death by "The Islamic state [ISIS]" ? Hamas are much the same. (also brutalize the Christian population and if your atheist - forget it.

Israel does not want to re-occupy Gaza and have its soldiers butchered endlessly, considering the soldiers are mostly civilian reservists this is a big blow to Israeli society having such a high death toll. Israel also does not deliberately target civilians - if it did so the civilian death toll would not be under 1000 but could be 50,000. Israel is the only army in the world which sends leaflets, radio broadcasts, text messages and dummy bombs and give directions where to escape prior to entering a civilian district to attack militants - the Americans, British or who ever else you choose does not do this !
Of course civilians do die and this is horrific - but who is to blame ? Surely Hamas for victimizing and brutalizing its own civilian population with tactics that clearly breach legals codes of war such as militants hiding amongst civilians - AND OPENLY SAYING SO WITH JIHADIST PRIDE !

As for your original grievance of Israel taking Palestinian land - it much more complex than such a simplistic naive view. What is required would be compromise on both sides and a two state solution as both peoples have legitimate claims to the land. There are multiple narratives from both sides which have legitimacy and hence moderate Palestinians and Israeli's will have to agree to a two state solution which is inevitable eventually - even if that does take 50yrs or more.
For more insights into "multiple narratives" for land ownership - It is possible to take the perspective of different narratives and see why they are legitimate.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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29-07-2014, 08:03 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
SOme narratives for Israels legitimacy as per original question:

Narrative 1: Jews in Hebron were massacred in 1834 & 1929 by arabs leading to Jews to flee. Many of these Jews were "indigenous" to the area and it is now virtually all Arab Palestinian (except for some 400 fundamentalist Jews) If Jews didnt flee from these Arab pogroms Hebron would probably have been in Israel today and not PA West Bank. Those Jews had rights to live in Hebron and have their autonomy..

Narrative 2: Jerusalem has an ancient Jewish quarter and this was cut off and besieged by Arabs - particularly the British trained Arab Legion army in 1948. The UN cease fires were particularly strategic to help Arabs cut off the supply road and prevent Israel from protecting the Jewish quarter. Jews lost the battle and Jerusalem fell to Jordan pre-1967. Jews would have had a much larger presence had they not been persecuted by muslims and prevented from living in the old city by various Islamic caliphates who ruled the region.(the late ottomans relaxed this policy.) There would be even more Jews hadn't the Byzantine rulers been even more brutal to the Jewish population. Bottom line is that Jerusalem is legitimately part of Israel with very strong historical continuity & indigenous presence. Although the Arabs also have a right to parts of it such as the East of the city. (hence shared rule) - Under Jordanian rule Jews were banned and cemeteries/holy sites destroyed. Under Israeli rule - Christians and Muslims can worship. Yes there are sometimes restrictions on the number of muslims who can go to the temple mount mosque in times of violence - but this is understandable (eg only allowing children, elderly & women when there were riots)
Basically both peoples have a right to live in the region of Jerusalem because Arab conquerors also contributed to expanding and re-building the city such as the mamluk/Abbassid caliphates.

Narrative 3: Hundreds of thousands of Jews fled arab countries following various persecutions, losing their homes and wealth in places such as Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Libya etc (and non Arab Iran) and emigrated to Israel as some 3/4 million refugees. No compensation given and Jewish properties looted in the 100,000's - especially from Iraq. Considering some of these Arab countries attacked Israel after the UN voted for Israels independence in 1948 such as Iraq - to all intents and purposes these Jews have a right to live in Israel. Its basically a refugee swap of Jews leaving Arab countries and Arabs leaving some parts of what would become Israel incorporated into neighboring countries such as Jordan. 2nd, 3rd + 4th generation jews fleeing arab countries have even a greater right to live in Israel as this is their only home they have ever known and no chance of ever going back to the Arab countries their parents escaped from.
According to Hamas all these Jews must die - regardless if 1st generation or born today.

Narrative 4: Many Arabs did not flee from areas were Jews lived such as Jaffa/Tel-Aviv and the Haifa region in 1948 - they make up 1/5th of the Israeli population and have full citizenship, voting, political representation and part of a democracy. Whilst there may be inequality in some areas they have better prosperity & education that most arabs in all surrounding arab counties + Palestinian territories (apart from super rich arab oil states) In places like Tel-Aviv-Jaffa the Arab/Jewish areas are inseparable and intertwined along the coast with no barriers whatsoever. (many Israel's go to Arab restaurants & Arabs work in Jewish areas)

Narrative 5: The UN at the end of the day realized that both Jews & Arabs are living in the region and the land had to be split as per partition plan in 1948 hence voted to recognize a state of Israel. Arab armies invaded the Jewish areas after rejecting the international UN decision aiming for complete genocidal annihilation of all Jews. Whilst Jews lost Jerusalem they did win the war and manage to survive. Hence the international community sees Israel as a legitimate soverign state with a right to exist. Arab invading armies from Syria/Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon/Iraq lost the war in 1948 - tough, that's the wager they took against the UN international decision. As it happens if Arab Armies DIDN'T invade the fledgling partitioned Israel as per UN the land partitioned to Jews would have been much smaller than today.

Narrative 6: It is often sighted that Israel exists because of sympathy for Jews from the murder & persecution leading to millions of Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany & war torn Europe (i.e European guilt). However one wrong doesnt give right for Jews going to take Palestinian Arab land who were not involved with Germany in WW2 ?. To start with Arab nationalists were involved in the holocaust of Jews such as the Grand mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini who initiated various Arab riots against Jews and was a pro-Nazi Arab nationalist who was received by Hitler, visited concentration camps, supported wordwide extermination of Jews and involved in persecutions of Jews in Iraq pre 1948. So Palestinians nationalism is clearly linked to the holocaust of Jews and not some guiltless get of of any responsibility card. (and regardless of grievances of Arabs towards Jews under the Ottoman/British mandate ruled palestine what the heck has Arab/Islamic nationalism any business wiping out Jews from Iraq and conspiring with Hitler to wipe out Jews from Europe ? This back fired as it helped more Jews emigrate to Israel fleeing Iraqi & European persecution NOT preventing it !!!

Narrative 7: As for the post WW2 refugees, from a pragmatic point of view they have no other home - so what is the solution ? Killing them all as per Hamas charter ? Clearly populations change as per migrations and this has occurred throughout the world & no different in Palestine/Israel. Are we going to kill all European Americans, Canadians, Australians, South Americans etc because they were not the indigenous people of the land ???? What about Arabs living in Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Sudan, Mali etc "owned" by any Arabs ? Again - all these are conquered lands by the Various Arab Empires such as the Abbasid Caliphate (now majority are Arabs and Arabs rule much of the North African continent). Should Arabs make a mass exodus from Egypt and reinstate a more indigenous Coptic Egyptian rulers ?
Palestine was also part of the Caliphate conquests taken by conquering the Byzantine Empire - hence do Arabs "own" Palestine as indigenous people when it was part of the various Arab Caliphate conquests ?

Narrative 8: Jews were already legitimately buying land & emigrating in pre 1948 Palestine well before WW2 under both the British Mandate and Ottoman rule. Jews emigrating legitimately or buying land of course have a right to live there.

Narrative 9: Jewish nationalism for Israel does not have to be "religious fundamentalist zionism" i.e God gave the land or some Biblical prophecy being fulfilled. There is also a secular perspective which is Jewish nationalism directly inspired arab nationalism for an independent Arab state of Palestine. The simple facts are there was never an arab state of Palestine in history pre-1948. Palestine was always a province of other Empires ruled from other lands be it Iraq (Abbassid/Fatimid Caliphate), Turkey (Ottoman Empire), Persia (Sassanid Empire) , Egypt (Mamluk & Tulunid caliphates) & Europe (Crusaders, Byzantine, Roman). Migrations changed throughout these empires with islam incorporated and arabization of the land during the dynasties of various caliphate rulers. The last people to recognize the land as an autonomous independent state are Jews during the period of Judah pre-Roman destruction. Whilst Jews were forbidden to go back by various Empires (Christian & Muslim) it was always seen as a homeland for Jews. So it isn't like Judah/Israel was forgotten and a bunch of Europeans just made up a Jewish link to the land. Prior to Judah being an independent autonomous Jewish homeland there is a history that goes back many centuries.
From archeological evidence it seems likely that ancient Israel originated from indigenous Canaanites as an offshoot from various city states. Very unlikely the Biblical story of the Exodus is true from any archeology, local ancient historical writings or scientific understanding.

Narritive10: I'm secular & atheist - but religious Jewish fundamentalists believe from the Torah the land of Israel is God given and they are fulfilling prophecy by going back to live there as part of their eternal inheritance - to build the land & make it prosper as some utopia. Muslims believe in the quran and Hadith and all areas conquered post Mohammed such as Rashidun, Ummayid dynasties, various muslim Caliphates / Islamic Empires /Ottomans are part of the eternal "Ummah" ("Islamic commonwealth") which of course includes Palestine. (and incidentally Spain and some of South East Europe)
For those Muslim fundamentalists (and even moderates) losing parts of the Ummah is a huge insult to the Pan-Islamic goals and islamization of the world. It is one thing for Muslims to conquer the rest of Europe or US & world, quite another to lose an area previously under the Ummah. Of course Spain is unlikely to be conquered back but Israel is still a fresh insult to previous Islamic conquests. For secularists and atheists narrative 10 is like hitting your head on a brick wall and conversations break down very quickly.

Narrative 11: Getting to some speculation now outside of "historical narratives & evidence" Basically Israel has become a prosperous, western style liberal democracy with significant achievements in science, medicine, agriculture, technology etc and there is shear Arab/muslim Jealousy that most Arab/predominantly muslim countries around the region are backward and stagnant by virtually every measure unless they are lucky to find oil. Even if the do find oil they end up with brutal dictatorships, find any excuse to blame the west for all their troubles and end up in civil wars - just look around today from North Africa, all the way to Indonesia & Philippines - one long line of bloodshed. Is it any surprise that the surrounding countries would hope to loot all of Israel has developed ?
(strictly speaking not all arab but some muslim non-arabs)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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