Should America Support Israel?
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07-08-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
The Palestinians tried plenty of non-violence. Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. Non-violence got them settlements, blockades, and disenfranchisement. The first Intifada was non-violent; Israel responded with live ammunition. Somehow some Palestinians got the crazy idea that non-violence wasn't working against Israeli hardliners; I wonder why? The Oslo agreements mandated a withdrawal of Israeli settlements; guess what never happened?

Israel has progressively restricted Gazan sea access. Israel has progressively blockaded Gazan trade. The list includes such things as concrete and steel. That makes it a little harder to rebuild, but I'm sure hunger and fear make great building materials too.

Just this year Hamas joined Fatah in a unity government which fully recognises the existence of Israel. Israel's response was to walk out of peace talks. The Israeli state is beholden to extremist interests. Unless and until that changes their methods will not change.

Israel's latest "request" is for a 3km buffer zone in a territory 6km wide.

The bombings will continue until morale improves.

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07-08-2014, 09:05 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
EK, why shouldn't Israel try to prevent the Palestinians from getting a state? They tried this and pulled out of Gaza, then the people elected Hamas and now Gaza is being used as a launching pad for attacks on Israel. Why should Israel trust the Palestinians when they have been given no reason to and every reason not to? If Israel did grant the Palestinians a state it would no doubt be used as a launchpad for attacks into Israel, just as Gaza is being used now.

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07-08-2014, 09:37 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 09:40 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 09:05 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  EK, why shouldn't Israel try to prevent the Palestinians from getting a state? They tried this and pulled out of Gaza, then the people elected Hamas and now Gaza is being used as a launching pad for attacks on Israel. Why should Israel trust the Palestinians when they have been given no reason to and every reason not to? If Israel did grant the Palestinians a state it would no doubt be used as a launchpad for attacks into Israel, just as Gaza is being used now.

As opposed to what, the current status quo? Should Israel blockade and occupy the Palestinians, denying them basic human rights, for another 5 decades? When does it end?

The Palestinians are not synonymous with Hamas, but the more the fighting continues, the more Israel will push those civilians into siding with Hamas. Given the actions of Israel, whose has the real power in this conflict, what other choice do they leave the Palestinians? Only one, complete submission; because I guess the Israeli government thinks they haven't subjected the entire populate enough already?

Take the case of Asmaa al-Ghoul. From her Wikipedia page...

Asma al-Ghul (also Al Ghoul, Alghoul ) is a young secular Palestinian feminist journalist who writes for the Ramallah-based newspaper Al-Ayyam, chronicling what she calls “the corruption of Fatah and the terrorism of Hamas.” Al-Ayyam is sometimes banned in Gaza by Hamas. Al-Ghul is described by the New York Times as "known for her defiant stance against violations of civil rights in Gaza."

Al-Ghul was born in 1982 in Rafah, a Gazan city bordering Egypt whose population is mainly Palestinian refugees. In 2003, she married an Egyptian poet and moved to Abu Dhabi. She and her husband later divorced, and she returned to Gaza with their son. In 2006, al-Ghul permanently took off her Islamic khimār (headscarf).

In 2009, al-Ghul reported being stopped and interrogated by Hamas after walking on a public beach near the Shati refugee camp in Gaza with a mixed-gender group of friends, while wearing jeans and a T-shirt with no headscarf, and laughing. The Associated Press said it was the first time since coming to power in 2007 that Hamas had tried to punish a woman for behaving in a way it viewed as un-Islamic. Al-Ghul says her male friends were subsequently detained for several hours, beaten, and then forced to sign statements saying they would not again "violate public moral standards." Hamas has denied that the incident took place.

In February 2011, al-Ghul said she was beaten while covering a rally expressing solidarity between Palestinians and Egyptians.

In March 2011, al-Ghul and seven other female Palestinian journalists said they were beaten and tortured by Hamas security forces while trying to cover rallies calling for Hamas to seek a peaceful reconciliation with Fatah. The Hamas government later apologized for some of the attacks and promised to launch an investigation.

At the age of 18, al-Ghul won the Palestinian Youth Literature award. In 2010, she received a Hellman/Hammett award from Human Rights Watch, aimed at helping writers "who dare to express ideas that criticize official public policy or people in power." Her work has been translated into English, Danish and Korean.

In 2012, al-Ghul was awarded the Courage in Journalism Award by the International Women's Media Foundation. She works for Lebanon's Samir Kassir Foundation, which advocates for media freedom.



This is the kind of person that Netanyahu (and his apologists like zaybu) would condemn to death, just for being in Gaza. Her and her children, their deaths are justified merely because they live in Gaza. That is fundamentally immoral and psychopathic, and speaks only of zealotry and irrational hatred. She is one of the people who could have been a beacon of peaceful change, a secular activist that fought against the tyranny of both Hamas and Israeli hardliners. Sadly, because of the actions of Israel, we have lost her to the cause.


Tears flowed until my body ran dry of them when I received a telephone call on Aug. 3, informing me that my family had been targeted by two F-16 missiles in the city of Rafah. Such was the fate of our family in a war that still continues, with every family in the Gaza Strip receiving its share of sorrow and pain.

My father’s brother, Ismail al-Ghoul, 60, was not a member of Hamas. His wife, Khadra, 62, was not a militant of Hamas. Their sons, Wael, 35, and Mohammed, 32, were not combatants for Hamas. Their daughters, Hanadi, 28, and Asmaa, 22, were not operatives for Hamas, nor were my cousin Wael’s children, Ismail, 11, Malak, 5, and baby Mustafa, only 24 days old, members of Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine or Fatah. Yet, they all died in the Israeli shelling that targeted their home at 6:20 a.m. on Sunday morning.

Their house was located in the Yibna neighborhood of the Rafah refugee camp. It was one story with a roof made of thin asbestos that did not require two F-16 missiles to destroy. Would someone please inform Israel that refugee camp houses can be destroyed, and their occupants killed, with only a small bomb, and that it needn’t spend billions to blow them into oblivion?

If it is Hamas that you hate, let me tell you that the people you are killing have nothing to do with Hamas. They are women, children, men and senior citizens whose only concern was for the war to end, so they can return to their lives and daily routines. But let me assure you that you have now created thousands — no, millions — of Hamas loyalists, for we all become Hamas if Hamas, to you, is women, children and innocent families. If Hamas, in your eyes, is ordinary civilians and families, then I am Hamas, they are Hamas and we are all Hamas...

...Now, the house and its future memories have been laid to waste, its children taken to early graves. Homes and recollections bombed into oblivion, their inhabitants homeless and lost, just as their camp always had been. Never ask me about peace again.


http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/original...nians.html


What is Israel's goal? What is it's endgame? If that goal is peace, then what they are doing, and have been doing for decades, is counter-productive. Self-defense simply cannot justify Israel's actions in Gaza. Israel has the power here, they are the ones that control the conflict. Israel has the power to do something else, they have the power to seek peace if they truly wanted.

I'm afraid however, that they are happy with the current status quo; because it keeps them in power while they don't have to concede anything. They need not worry about the Palestinians they kill, because they are so easily demonized as 'the other'; in much the same way the Nazis demonize the Jews themselves. It is indeed a bitter irony, and proof once again that those ignorant of the lessons of history will be doomed to repeat them.

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07-08-2014, 09:40 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 09:43 AM by Res Publica.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
So Israel should just trust the Palestinians and let them have their state? Just hope that they don't vote Hamas in again?

And Israel should force the Palestinians to surrender unconditionally, it is the only hope for peace.

Hams bears responsibility for the deaths, not Israel. The IDF is taking all measures it can to avoid civilian casualties, but Hamas is using a human shield.




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07-08-2014, 09:45 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 09:55 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 09:40 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  So Israel should just trust the Palestinians and let them have their state? Just hope that they don't vote Hamas in again?

Much though some people find it convenient to pretend otherwise, the people of Gaza and the West Bank are human beings.

Their actions are impelled by reasons. If those reasons change, their actions will change.

Hamas does not exist because the people of Gaza woke up one day with their brains set to "nazi".

Hamas has - many times - that their negotiating position begins with the 1967 borders. You may note that this is the exact opposite of "denying the existence of Israel".

(07-08-2014 09:40 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  And Israel should force the Palestinians to surrender unconditionally, it is the only hope for peace.

The Palestinians know damn well what unconditional surrender will get them. It will get them occupation, settlements, displacement, oppression, disenfranchisement, and obscurity. For some reason that doesn't appeal to them. Go figure - those crazy fascists, amirite?

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07-08-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 08:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So Israel has all of the power,

Keep believing in that myth.


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07-08-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 09:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 09:40 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  So Israel should just trust the Palestinians and let them have their state? Just hope that they don't vote Hamas in again?

Much though some people find it convenient to pretend otherwise, the people of Gaza and the West Bank are human beings.

Their actions are impelled by reasons. If those reasons change, their actions will change.

Hamas does not exist because the people of Gaza woke up one day with their brains set to "nazi".

Hamas has - many times - that their positions begins with the 1967 borders. You may note that this is the exact opposite of "denying the existence of Israel".

(07-08-2014 09:40 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  And Israel should force the Palestinians to surrender unconditionally, it is the only hope for peace.

The Palestinians know damn well what unconditional surrender will get them. It will get them occupation, settlements, displacement, oppression, disenfranchisement, and obscurity. For some reason that doesn't appeal to them. Go figure - those crazy fascists, amirite?

You are defending Hamas? In that case you don't even need to be answered, you already defeated yourself.

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07-08-2014, 09:51 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 09:54 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 09:48 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 09:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Much though some people find it convenient to pretend otherwise, the people of Gaza and the West Bank are human beings.

Their actions are impelled by reasons. If those reasons change, their actions will change.

Hamas does not exist because the people of Gaza woke up one day with their brains set to "nazi".

Hamas has - many times - that their positions begins with the 1967 borders. You may note that this is the exact opposite of "denying the existence of Israel".


The Palestinians know damn well what unconditional surrender will get them. It will get them occupation, settlements, displacement, oppression, disenfranchisement, and obscurity. For some reason that doesn't appeal to them. Go figure - those crazy fascists, amirite?

You are defending Hamas? In that case you don't even need to be answered, you already defeated yourself.

Either you can't read, or you're not even trying.

I am not justifying their actions. I am not excusing their actions. I am not endorsing their actions.

What I am doing is explaining their actions.

There's a big difference. Grow the fuck up.

Dehumanising others is not productive. Neither are straw men.

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07-08-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 09:46 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 08:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So Israel has all of the power,

Keep believing in that myth.

By what nonsensical standard is that a myth?

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07-08-2014, 09:53 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 09:59 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 09:40 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  So Israel should just trust the Palestinians and let them have their state? Just hope that they don't vote Hamas in again?

And Israel should force the Palestinians to surrender unconditionally, it is the only hope for peace.

Hams bears responsibility for the deaths, not Israel. The IDF is taking all measures it can to avoid civilian casualties, but Hamas is using a human shield.





Fucking hell...

Israel has blocked every diplomatic attempt at a peaceful solution, and yet it's Hamas' sole fault? Do you even bother to read the shit you type?

For the upteenth time, negotions are never unilateral. The peace process would have required both trust and risk from both sides, and time and time again it has been Israel that has sabotaged the diplomatic process. After five decades of being dicked around and having less then nothing to show for it, it it any fucking wonder that Gaza is a hotbed for potential militants and jihadists? What option has Israel left them? They have moved the goalpost every time the Palestinians have come to play ball; until now the goal is complete subjugation.

But no, Hamas are still the only bad guys, Israel is not at fault; in fact Israel has been forced into their actions because Hamas represent such an overwhelming threat...

You have to be utterly blind to the history of the conflict and the current state of affairs to say that with a straight face.


So long as Israel remains in control by warmongering absolutist that refuse to concede anything in the name of peace; this conflict and it's needless deaths and suffering (on both sides) will continue.

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