Should America Support Israel?
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07-08-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:09 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  The opponents of Israel do not use logic, but have an entirely emotionally driven view. They are so driven by antisemitism and hatred of the West and love of Moslems that they are incapable of seeing this rationally. They see everything through rose tinted glasses. Ek is now spewing anti-Israel conspiracies about the ultimate goal being subjugation of the Arabs.

You anti-Zionists are on the same level as Roswell conspiracy theorists.

Fuck you too, it's not a conspiracy or anti-semitism to point out reality.

If Israel wanted peace, they could have peace. They don't want it, and haven't wanted it for decades. What has Israel done to convince you that they want anything but the continuation of the status quo, which only serves to make right-wing conservative hawks more popular everytime the bombs start dropping?

The Israelis have tried for peace many times.




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07-08-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:13 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Israel's government doesn't want to resolve the conflict, they'd rather it continues because it's continuation helps keep in power those who are already in power. The war is popular in Israel, Netanyahu has seen his approval rating skyrocket; and all it cost them was 64 soldiers and 3 civilians (it cost the Palestinians 1406+ innocent civilians and 430 children, and the destruction of half of Gaza).

Did they lose the 3 billion dollars in aid the United States gives them every year? Nope. But I see no reason why they should continue to get it, why my government should continue to subsidize their military industrial complex.

So all you have is "lulz cunspirazy, Izreely PM juz din it fur deh aprivl ratinz". You are just a leftist who hates all things Western and is incapable of reason.

Reason? You have yet to present justification for Israel's actions that haven't relied on stawman, gross generalizations, an abject ignorance of history, and denial about the current state of affairs. Someone here is ignoring reason alright...

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07-08-2014, 10:18 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Israel's government doesn't want to resolve the conflict,

So, Israel has all the power... myth.

Now, Israel doesn't want to resolve the conflict... myth.

Keep going, you're doing great.

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07-08-2014, 10:21 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:18 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Israel's government doesn't want to resolve the conflict,

So, Israel has all the power... myth.

You didn't show that, you just asserted that.

(07-08-2014 10:18 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Now, Israel doesn't want to resolve the conflict... myth.

Keep going, you're doing great.

Israel could withdraw to the 1967 borders and grant a Palestinian right of return tomorrow. Conflict solved.

Why don't they?

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07-08-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:10 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 09:59 AM)zaybu Wrote:  I don't think the Israelis can resolve this issue, and no one else can.

Some of them seem to have some bright ideas.

Time and the status quo will certainly "resolve" the issue, after a fashion...

The proposed solution, "humanitarian relocation of the non-belligerent Arab population, and extension of Israeli sovereignty over the region" would not be accepted by the international community, and more importantly, not acceptable by the US. Mind you, I'm not against that idea, but it's not feasible.

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07-08-2014, 10:28 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:21 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:18 AM)zaybu Wrote:  So, Israel has all the power... myth.

You didn't show that, you just asserted that.

(07-08-2014 10:18 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Now, Israel doesn't want to resolve the conflict... myth.

Keep going, you're doing great.

Israel could withdraw to the 1967 borders and grant a Palestinian right of return tomorrow. Conflict solved.

Why don't they?

Israel, unlike the Arab states, has accepted some Palestinian refugees and granted them equal rights. They cannot accept more as they could pose a demographic threat to the Jewish State. If Arab countries did the same the refugee crisis could be solved overnight.

And what about the Jewish refuges who fled to Israel? The were between 800,000 and 1,000,000 Jewish refugees driven out of Arab countries who settled in Israel in 1948 to the 1970's. I don't hear anyone whining about their right of return. A simple solution is apparent; the Arab states take in the Palestinian refugees. But they won't do this because they would rather use them as a political weapon.

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07-08-2014, 10:32 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:21 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:18 AM)zaybu Wrote:  So, Israel has all the power... myth.

You didn't show that, you just asserted that.

(07-08-2014 10:18 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Now, Israel doesn't want to resolve the conflict... myth.

Keep going, you're doing great.

Israel could withdraw to the 1967 borders and grant a Palestinian right of return tomorrow. Conflict solved.

Why don't they?

During the talks between Arafat and Barak, the Palestinians were given 95% of their demands, and still they couldn't sign on.

"Alan Dershowitz, an Israel advocate and a law professor at Harvard University, said that the failure of the negotiations was due to "the refusal of the Palestinians and Arafat to give up the right of return. That was the sticking point. It wasn't Jerusalem. It wasn't borders. It was the right of return." He claimed that President Clinton told this to him "directly and personally." SEE: http://www.democracynow.org/2005/12/23/n...rshowitz_a

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07-08-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:28 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Israel, unlike the Arab states, has accepted some Palestinian refugees and granted them equal rights. They cannot accept more as they could pose a demographic threat to the Jewish State. If Arab countries did the same the refugee crisis could be solved overnight.

So what you're saying is that Israel's status as an ethnic-supremacist state is what's stopping them from recognising the citizenship of the people who live on the land they annexed.

Still, it took a hundred years before we admitted that first nations people were citizens, so who knows.

(07-08-2014 10:28 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  And what about the Jewish refuges who fled to Israel? The were between 800,000 and 1,000,000 Jewish refugees driven out of Arab countries who settled in Israel in 1948 to the 1970's. I don't hear anyone whining about their right of return.

I'm not sure why I should need to explain this to you, but one bad deed does not cancel out another.

(07-08-2014 10:28 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  A simple solution is apparent; the Arab states take in the Palestinian refugees. But they won't do this because they would rather use them as a political weapon.

Why should they accept ethnic cleansing?

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07-08-2014, 10:45 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:32 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:21 AM)cjlr Wrote:  You didn't show that, you just asserted that.


Israel could withdraw to the 1967 borders and grant a Palestinian right of return tomorrow. Conflict solved.

Why don't they?

During the talks between Arafat and Barak, the Palestinians were given 95% of their demands, and still they couldn't sign on.

"Alan Dershowitz, an Israel advocate and a law professor at Harvard University, said that the failure of the negotiations was due to "the refusal of the Palestinians and Arafat to give up the right of return. That was the sticking point. It wasn't Jerusalem. It wasn't borders. It was the right of return." He claimed that President Clinton told this to him "directly and personally." SEE: http://www.democracynow.org/2005/12/23/n...rshowitz_a

Indeed. The PA sees Jerusalem as a lost cause. They see much of the West Bank as a lost cause. The right of return is something Israel could easily have granted, but didn't.

"It's their fault they didn't accept a deal which didn't include one of the conditions they've always insisted was necessary?"

Really?

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07-08-2014, 10:50 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:28 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Israel, unlike the Arab states, has accepted some Palestinian refugees and granted them equal rights. They cannot accept more as they could pose a demographic threat to the Jewish State. If Arab countries did the same the refugee crisis could be solved overnight.

So what you're saying is that Israel's status as an ethnic-supremacist state is what's stopping them from recognising the citizenship of the people who live on the land they annexed.

Still, it took a hundred years before we admitted that first nations people were citizens, so who knows.

(07-08-2014 10:28 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  And what about the Jewish refuges who fled to Israel? The were between 800,000 and 1,000,000 Jewish refugees driven out of Arab countries who settled in Israel in 1948 to the 1970's. I don't hear anyone whining about their right of return.

I'm not sure why I should need to explain this to you, but one bad deed does not cancel out another.

(07-08-2014 10:28 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  A simple solution is apparent; the Arab states take in the Palestinian refugees. But they won't do this because they would rather use them as a political weapon.

Why should they accept ethnic cleansing?

Contrary to leftist belief, the Arabs were not driven out. They left because they were not willing to live with Jews, they did not want to be caught in the crossfire (which they would not have to worry about were it not for the Arab League's invasion) or expected they could return after the Arab League exterminated the Jews. The Jews were driven out. I am not claiming that 2 wrongs wake a right, what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of rattling on about the Arab right of return while ignoring the Jews who were actually forced out.

And even if the Arabs had faced ethnic cleansing that would just be all the more reason to accept them. Generally when you have ethnic cleansing survivors you help them out. Would you really deny ethnic cleansing survivors basic civil rights simply to make the perpetrators look bad?

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