Should America Support Israel?
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07-08-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:32 AM)zaybu Wrote:  During the talks between Arafat and Barak, the Palestinians were given 95% of their demands, and still they couldn't sign on.

"Alan Dershowitz, an Israel advocate and a law professor at Harvard University, said that the failure of the negotiations was due to "the refusal of the Palestinians and Arafat to give up the right of return. That was the sticking point. It wasn't Jerusalem. It wasn't borders. It was the right of return." He claimed that President Clinton told this to him "directly and personally." SEE: http://www.democracynow.org/2005/12/23/n...rshowitz_a

Indeed. The PA sees Jerusalem as a lost cause. They see much of the West Bank as a lost cause. The right of return is something Israel could easily have granted, but didn't.

"It's their fault they didn't accept a deal which didn't include one of the conditions they've always insisted was necessary?"

Really?

In any negotiations, it's unrealistic to expect 100% of your demand. Your initial demand is an opening offer, not a final one. Secondly, giving the right of return would unbalance the demography in Israel, so that in effect, demanding a right of return is another way of trying to destroy the state of Israel, which means that the Palestinians never relented from their openly stated objective of 1948. So instead of a two-state resolution which could have materialized in 2000, instead we ended up with a perpetual cycle of violence. And yet, there are those who still believe that Israel doesn`t want to resolve this issue. AMAZING.

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07-08-2014, 11:12 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:50 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Contrary to leftist belief, the Arabs were not driven out. They left because they were not willing to live with Jews, they did not want to be caught in the crossfire (which they would not have to worry about were it not for the Arab League's invasion) or expected they could return after the Arab League exterminated the Jews. The Jews were driven out. I am not claiming that 2 wrongs wake a right, what I am doing is pointing out the hypocrisy of rattling on about the Arab right of return while ignoring the Jews who were actually forced out.

That's some mighty convenient revisionist history.

It's not true, but it's certainly convenient.

(07-08-2014 10:50 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  And even if the Arabs had faced ethnic cleansing that would just be all the more reason to accept them.

You've already admitted they faced ethnic cleansing. That is a necessary implication of Israel's existence. A Jewish Israel cannot contain too many non-Jews. I leave it up to your imagination what is to be done with them.

(07-08-2014 10:50 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Generally when you have ethnic cleansing survivors you help them out. Would you really deny ethnic cleansing survivors basic civil rights simply to make the perpetrators look bad?

The Palestinians in Jordan are mostly citizens.

Did you do any research?

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07-08-2014, 11:19 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:55 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Indeed. The PA sees Jerusalem as a lost cause. They see much of the West Bank as a lost cause. The right of return is something Israel could easily have granted, but didn't.

"It's their fault they didn't accept a deal which didn't include one of the conditions they've always insisted was necessary?"

Really?

In any negotiations, it's unrealistic to expect 100% of your demand. Your initial demand is an opening offer, not a final one. Secondly, giving the right of return would unbalance the demography in Israel, so that in effect, demanding a right of return is another way of trying to destroy the state of Israel, which means that the Palestinians never relented from their openly stated objective of 1948. So instead of a two-state resolution which could have materialized in 2000, instead we ended up with a perpetual cycle of violence. And yet, there are those who still believe that Israel doesn`t want to resolve this issue. AMAZING.

"Unbalance the demography in Israel", eh?

The openly stated objective of the Palestinians is a two-state solution. It has been for decades. Even Hamas has said so.

Negotiations have been ongoing for over twenty years. It's the height of disingenuous troll logic to blame every failure on the Palestinian Authority.

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07-08-2014, 11:34 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2014 12:00 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 10:15 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Fuck you too, it's not a conspiracy or anti-semitism to point out reality.

If Israel wanted peace, they could have peace. They don't want it, and haven't wanted it for decades. What has Israel done to convince you that they want anything but the continuation of the status quo, which only serves to make right-wing conservative hawks more popular everytime the bombs start dropping?

The Israelis have tried for peace many times.





Well, that video is mostly irrelevant. It's kind of funny that they spend most of the video bringing up the skeletons from only one side of the conflict. The one example they give specific number for was the Nebi Musa Riot. Which at 6 Israelis dead, hundreds beaten, and some property damage; pales in comparison to the weeks long destruction of Gaza that makes the city look like it was struck with an earthquake and killing 1875 Palestinians, of which 430 were children.

Yes, the Arabs resented what had traditionally been their land being divided up and given over to Jews by European outsiders; one of the many headaches that have stemmed for the clumsy dismantling and meddling of European empires following the end of the Great War. Earlier on in this conflict, it really was a conflict; the balance of power was more balanced. But simply put, Israel hasn't had to seriously fear for it's borders since the Six Day War in 1967. They now have nuclear weapons (in violation of international treaties), the most technologically advanced and powerful military in the region, and billions of dollars annually from the United States to fund their war machine; and much like the United States, they want to use their 'toys'.

It also ignores how the Palestinians and the UN were not part of the 1978 Camp David Accords, which were held between Egypt and Israel at the behest of the United States; and why they were subsequently rejected by the UN for this gross oversight. Although it did get Isreal peace with Egypt, giving them a quite border and allowing them to focus the IDF elsewhere. Also the failure of the 2000 Camp David Summit is not the one-sided affair the video portrays it as, and also ignores the 3-to-1 Palestinian/Israeli death ratio while describing the 'brutal' Palestinian offensive of the following Second Intifada. The video paints a one-sided portrayal of Israel that whitewashes and ignores all of their own stonewalling and inability to meet or agree to concessions. Both sides have failed to make the peace process work, that video does nothing but ignore half of the story and paints Israel as perpetual victims. The only thing worse than hearing no sides of a story, is hearing only one side of it.

Israel is continuing the mistakes the Allies made at the end of the Great War; the mistake being the notion that peace can only come through subjugation and surrender. Lasting peace doesn't come from oppression, it comes from liberation and education (see Germany and Japan post-WWII for example). Israel has the military might, and the backing of NATO, so that it's sovereignty is no longer even remotely in doubt. They have the Iron Dome system, which destroys the impotent, unguided, small payload rockets that Hamas fires at them in anger. Hamas represents almost no threat to Israel. Now with the information age and a new generation of more well informed, less religious, far more tolerant Palestinian; now is a better time than ever to seek a lasting peace. But instead the formerly oppressed have become the oppressors, they have become the embodiment of the very thing the creation of Israel was supposed to counter; a home for a homeless and oppressed people.

Israel has managed to make peace with their other Arab neighbors; how much more goodwill could be gained by finally reaching a peaceful solution with the Palestinians? Do the sins of the past justify the killing of innocent children? Not anymore than the sins of the past justify rocket barrages at civilians; neither are justified or acceptable.

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07-08-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Keep being retarded, you are only proving my point.

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07-08-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 11:45 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Keep being retarded, you are only proving my point.

Oh, boy, that cogent argument sure showed me.

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07-08-2014, 12:32 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 11:19 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:55 AM)zaybu Wrote:  In any negotiations, it's unrealistic to expect 100% of your demand. Your initial demand is an opening offer, not a final one. Secondly, giving the right of return would unbalance the demography in Israel, so that in effect, demanding a right of return is another way of trying to destroy the state of Israel, which means that the Palestinians never relented from their openly stated objective of 1948. So instead of a two-state resolution which could have materialized in 2000, instead we ended up with a perpetual cycle of violence. And yet, there are those who still believe that Israel doesn`t want to resolve this issue. AMAZING.

"Unbalance the demography in Israel", eh?

The openly stated objective of the Palestinians is a two-state solution. It has been for decades. Even Hamas has said so.

A reread of Hamas charter says otherwise.


Quote:Negotiations have been ongoing for over twenty years. It's the height of disingenuous troll logic to blame every failure on the Palestinian Authority.

Most observers, including the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia condemned Arafat for the failure of signing on in 2000. Some trolling, riiighhttt....

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07-08-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Saudi Arabia is not on either side but their own. They love this conflict . They are waiting for this to turn into a washout bloodbath so that they can come in and take over. They hate Hamas and fund Isis if that says anything.

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07-08-2014, 12:56 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 12:37 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  Saudi Arabia is not on either side but their own. They love this conflict . They are waiting for this to turn into a washout bloodbath so that they can come in and take over. They hate Hamas and fund Isis if that says anything.

To their credit, they did have a peace proposal in 2007 - it was both rejected by Israel and Hamas. Such proposals are hardly discussed as it builds unrealistic expectations, only pulling the two sides further apart. And besides, negotiations are just about impossible when the two sides are shooting at each others.

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07-08-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
This is about money and power and strategy, and the people hurt are the civilians on both sides. But because the respective sides are stuck on labels, they see the other as a sub species.

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