Should America Support Israel?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-08-2014, 01:36 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 12:32 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 11:19 AM)cjlr Wrote:  "Unbalance the demography in Israel", eh?

The openly stated objective of the Palestinians is a two-state solution. It has been for decades. Even Hamas has said so.

A reread of Hamas charter says otherwise.

The same charter they didn't mention in their official governing platform?

Is there any particular reason you think a symbolic document from 1988 is more meaningful than multiple repeated and explicit statements contradicting it made in the last 8 years?

(07-08-2014 12:32 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
Quote:Negotiations have been ongoing for over twenty years. It's the height of disingenuous troll logic to blame every failure on the Palestinian Authority.

Most observers, including the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia condemned Arafat for the failure of signing on in 2000. Some trolling, riiighhttt....

That's one point of view. Notwithstanding that neither side accepted anything concrete.

But we might also note that the Palestinian right of return was a symbolic request, and the details and implementation were (as stated) to be made contingent on Israeli acceptance. So much for "unbalancing the demography". But hey, that's only according to the Israeli chief negotiator at the time.

...

It's not like looking into things with a little more depth is very hard

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
07-08-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 01:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 12:32 PM)zaybu Wrote:  A reread of Hamas charter says otherwise.

The same charter they didn't mention in their official governing platform?

Is there any particular reason you think a symbolic document from 1988 is more meaningful than multiple repeated and explicit statements contradicting it made in the last 8 years?

Not mentioning is not a repudiation. Here's an idea: why don't Hamas renunciate officially and publicly their stated clause in the charter that says death to the state of Israel? What a humongous step that would be towards reconciliation... LOL. Let me know when that happens.




Quote:
(07-08-2014 12:32 PM)zaybu Wrote:  Most observers, including the governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia condemned Arafat for the failure of signing on in 2000. Some trolling, riiighhttt....

That's one point of view. Notwithstanding that neither side accepted anything concrete.

But we might also note that the Palestinian right of return was a symbolic request, and the details and implementation were (as stated) to be made contingent on Israeli acceptance. So much for "unbalancing the demography". But hey, that's only according to the Israeli chief negotiator at the time.

How could it be just symbolic when the whole talk collapsed on account of it? It would mean that Arafat never intended to sign on, and therefore used that issue as a way out.



...

Quote:It's not like looking into things with a little more depth is very hard

Sure both sides have their own version of what took place and who is to blame for its failure, but nevertheless, this was the closest that both sides had ever come to a possible agreement. And considering that it was the Palestinians who declared war on Israel, lost the war, the offers were more than generous. Usually, in a war, the victors dictate the terms of the treaty. The Palestinians don't seem to have a clue in regard to this.

My blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2014, 02:46 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
The jewish people should have a state of their own.... somewhere. The problem is that they chose land that happened to have a lot of people already on it. They chose it because their "Holy" book said it is theirs. Unfortunately, other people have similar books saying the same thing.

So, if they bought a really nice piece of land in like say a corner of Brazil or Australia (probably) noone would have fought them.

So, now we have a fight that will NEVER end because of religious beliefs.

Sigh.

Carpe Diem
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 02:43 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 01:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The same charter they didn't mention in their official governing platform?

Is there any particular reason you think a symbolic document from 1988 is more meaningful than multiple repeated and explicit statements contradicting it made in the last 8 years?

Not mentioning is not a repudiation. Here's an idea: why don't Hamas renunciate officially and publicly their stated clause in the charter that says death to the state of Israel? What a humongous step that would be towards reconciliation... LOL. Let me know when that happens.

They can't renounce what they haven't adopted.

Their official stance is that the state of Israel exists and is fully entitled to the 1967 borders. They've said this many times. That's the stance they were elected under.

(07-08-2014 02:43 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
Quote:That's one point of view. Notwithstanding that neither side accepted anything concrete.

But we might also note that the Palestinian right of return was a symbolic request, and the details and implementation were (as stated) to be made contingent on Israeli acceptance. So much for "unbalancing the demography". But hey, that's only according to the Israeli chief negotiator at the time.

How could it be just symbolic when the whole talk collapsed on account of it? It would mean that Arafat never intended to sign on, and therefore used that issue as a way out.

Symbolic, because they wanted an Israeli agreement in principle, with details settled later and all subject to Israeli approval. If you'd read what I linked, you'd see that was far from the only unresolved issue.

(07-08-2014 02:43 PM)zaybu Wrote:  Sure both sides have their own version of what took place and who is to blame for its failure...

That must be why you laid blaime entirely on one side, then.

Given the existence of such disparate viewpoints, is there a reason you adopt one so exclusively?

(07-08-2014 02:43 PM)zaybu Wrote:  ... but nevertheless, this was the closest that both sides had ever come to a possible agreement. And considering that it was the Palestinians who declared war on Israel, lost the war, the offers were more than generous. Usually, in a war, the victors dictate the terms of the treaty. The Palestinians don't seem to have a clue in regard to this.

The Palestinians declared war? Who? When?

Considering it was the Israelis who occupied and oppressed the Palestinians, the offers were less than generous. For forty years they denied there was anyone to negotiate with.

Should they just lie back and take it?

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2014, 03:32 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Not having a horse in this race I think the mentality of Israel has always been, "It is our land, it always was, we are older than you." Now having said that I do not view them as Nazis, but I do think they suffer from the same stupid logic of blood and or religion giving ANYONE a sense of entitlement. It is still setting up a social pecking order using the same flawed logic.

When Jews argue race or religion over that land, they need to know how an atheist in America feels when a Christian says "Christian nation". It doesn't matter how inclusive you say you are, once you incorporate religious or race based laws into your constitution you are setting up a social pecking order. At best it is tokenism, but it is not equality.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Brian37's post
07-08-2014, 04:46 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 03:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:43 PM)zaybu Wrote:  Not mentioning is not a repudiation. Here's an idea: why don't Hamas renunciate officially and publicly their stated clause in the charter that says death to the state of Israel? What a humongous step that would be towards reconciliation... LOL. Let me know when that happens.

They can't renounce what they haven't adopted.

Their official stance is that the state of Israel exists and is fully entitled to the 1967 borders. They've said this many times. That's the stance they were elected under.

This is what is written in their charter:

On the Destruction of Israel:

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)


It doesn't take much effort to google it.

Quote:
(07-08-2014 02:43 PM)zaybu Wrote:  How could it be just symbolic when the whole talk collapsed on account of it? It would mean that Arafat never intended to sign on, and therefore used that issue as a way out.

Symbolic, because they wanted an Israeli agreement in principle, with details settled later and all subject to Israeli approval.

You must be joking. Which country would sign on to a proposition that would ensure its destruction? The right of return is an unreasonable and unacceptable demand. And Arafat was not an idiot, he knew exactly what this meant. He didn't sign on because he knew that if he would, his own people would kill him. He needed a way out to save face in the eyes of the international community, and so his refusal on the basis that he wasn't getting anything on the right of right was a face-saving device.





Quote:Given the existence of such disparate viewpoints, is there a reason you adopt one so exclusively?

It's based on facts: the Palestinians declared war in 1948, that's a fact. That they have continue this war since then, that's a fact. That they have sworn the destruction of the state of Israel, that's a fact. That they either tacitly approve or even enable Hamas to carry its attack on Israel, that's a fact.

The Palestinians have declared war, have continued their fight to this day, then let them live with the atrocities. Don't come home to mama and complain.



Quote:
(07-08-2014 02:43 PM)zaybu Wrote:  ... but nevertheless, this was the closest that both sides had ever come to a possible agreement. And considering that it was the Palestinians who declared war on Israel, lost the war, the offers were more than generous. Usually, in a war, the victors dictate the terms of the treaty. The Palestinians don't seem to have a clue in regard to this.

The Palestinians declared war? Who? When?

1948. Get up to speed with the news.

Quote:Considering it was the Israelis who occupied and oppressed the Palestinians, the offers were less than generous. For forty years they denied there was anyone to negotiate with.

Should they just lie back and take it?



Wrong. Considering that the Palestinians declared war and lost, it was a very, very generous offer. And the next round if ever there is one, the offer will be less, not more.

My blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes zaybu's post
07-08-2014, 10:32 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(28-07-2014 09:03 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.
In 2008, up to 27th Dec., the home-made rockets that Hamas fired into Israel killedd no-one. In return the Israelis killed 400 children and 900 adults in Gaza.

I don't see how Israel has the right to kick the Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses, kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them.It is a nation that stole its land through military force. I hear so many evangelicals and fundamentalists claiming that we have to give money to Israel because the Bible says "bless israel and you shall be blessed, curse israel and you shall be cursed". What a shitcrock!

Now the Palestinians are imprisoned in the shithole Gaza Strip and forced west as israelis keep expanding into the west bank.

Okay, so, it's true that Hamas fired rockets at Israel so that must justify an invasion and killing hundreds of innocent people. Yeah if some idiots fired rockets from Mexico into Texas that justifies invading Mexico and killing hundreds of children right?

Without America (and others) funding Israel would the nation wouldnt exist.


The Gaza war is a horrible example of the worst kind of cynicism and terror tactics by Hamas.

This is how it works. Hamas is an organization that embraces using lethal force against women and children and is prepared to sacrifice women and children to achieve its goals. It sees death in the struggle to achieve its ends as preferable to life under Israeli rule and is committed to the destruction of Israel by means which include killing innocent women and children.

Hammas has support from the government of Qatar which own the news network, Aljazeera. Three AJ journalists have been locked up in Egypt for supporting the Muslim Brothehood which is the same as Hamas. Qatar funds Hamas and Hamas leaders live in Qatar.

Hamas shoot missiles out of urban areas in Gaza. There is no question about that. The only journalists allowed to film in Gaza are Aljazeera. I have been watching Al Jazeera continuously every day since the war broke out and there has not been one single image of a missile being launched from Gaza although over three thousand have been launched. There is no investigation by Al Jazeera of where these missiles are being fired from or why the Israelis claim civilians are being used by Hamas as human shields.

Israel is then left with options. They can sit under their iron domes and just say 'stop it' and do nothing more, not even impose a blockade. Would this work? No, because Hamas are ideologically committed to destroying Israel by all means available so Hamas initiate violence against innocent people. The other option is to impose a blockade to stop military hardware getting into Gaza. Again, a peaceful approach. Hamas' response is to claim this blockade is to stop essential supplies into Gaza and this is fed to the West by Al Jazeera. Hamas then construct tunnels using humanitarian aid to build tunnels and smuggle in weapons. No reporting of this by Al Jazeera.

Then Hamas embark on a campaign of terror against Israeli citizens claiming this is because of the blockade. Israel responds by pin pointng each missile coming out of Gaza using aerial photography and specifically targets those missiles. The people firing the missiles know they are going to be hit and do nothing to ensure the safety of civiliians in the area. Civilians then get killed in the Israeli attack.

You have to have watched this unfold on Al Jazeera to see how awful this situation is. I would not have believed it without sitting through this day after day and not seeing a single report or camera image of a missile going out of GAZA. Al Jazeera portray Israel as being utterly careless about what they are doing. They interview Hamas leaders who are never questioned about why they don't do anything at all to minimize the risk to their own citiizens and they play only film clips of people being killed and taken into hospital.

Since Hamas controls Gaza it would be unfair to be too critical of Al Jazeera but they are effectively being used in a very cynical propaganda campaign in which Hamas are prepared to endure the death of civilians in order to win over support to their cause. They have no intention of compromising or ensuring the safety of civilians because they have no other means of 'winning' this war. If they moved the civiliians out of harms way, their fighters would be killed, the tunnels closed and they would have no publicity of civiliian deaths so it would be pointless.

There are many Palestinians living in Israel and they don't support Hamas. Egypt is mainly Muslim and doesn't support Hamas and has blockaded Gaza so it's not just Israel.

The real problem here is, once again, US ignorance of what Islam is about and who the players are. Qatar are behind Hamas and the US is supporting Qatar because the central control facility for US military activity in the area is in Qatar:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Udeid_Air_Base

The US has been sucked into supporting Hamas as well because they misunderstood what Hamas is. Hamas was established by a Muslim cleric and is part of the Muslim Brotherhood which has a subversive anti-West terrorist element to it. It claims to be an organisation which is intent on bringing social change to Islamic countries and to help the people. Because of this it was seen as the best option for America and the West, because another feature of Hamas' policies is that they deliberately use deception to cover their terrorist side.

Other countries have also been the victim of this. The Turkish regime under Erdogan is similar to Hamas and Erdogan has set about dismantling the secularist state in Turkey and has made himself a dictator, based on his support from the Islamic population of Turkey. He has closed down a graft investigation and launched what he himself calls a witch hunt, removed prosecutors, arrested police officers who uncovered his billion dollar kick back ring, set up courts which have no appeal processes.

That is what is happening in the Near East. Fanatic Islamists have taken a different and very pollitically savvy approach and sucked in other countries by operating under the guise of a supposedly socially conscious organisation which deliberately conceals its militant agenda until it is in power and in a position to use violence, which it then does with religious enthusiasm, making martyrs out of women and children.

I have never been a big fan of Israel, but Gaza has made me one. I don't see that they have had any choice and I think the best thing for peace in the middle east now is that there is no independent Palestinian state. Americans would not tolerate an American Native state if it decided to lob missiles into residential neighbourhoods of Seattle or Columbus. They would send the troops in. Of course, in the West, we tend to forget that the entire New World is built on the theft of native land by force, the subjugation and genocides of native peoples and, at the same time, an open door immigration policy supporting the settlement of native lands by foreigners who don't even have the pretext that it is their ancient homeland.

I think it is time to call it a day on Palestine and I am sure from what I have seen on Al Jazeera that the game is up for militant Islam in Israel and the Near East.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Deltabravo's post
08-08-2014, 05:57 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
@ Deltabravo

Excellent post

My blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2014, 09:14 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 03:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  They can't renounce what they haven't adopted.

Their official stance is that the state of Israel exists and is fully entitled to the 1967 borders. They've said this many times. That's the stance they were elected under.

This is what is written in their charter:

On the Destruction of Israel:

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)


It doesn't take much effort to google it.

And it's not official.

This isn't complicated.

"It says bad things!"
"But it's not official."
"But it says bad things."
"Yes. And it has no official standing."
"But it says bad things."

Congratulations. It says bad things.

Now point me to the place where anyone has said they'd follow that idea.

Hamas hasn't. They've repeatedly acknowledged Israel's right to exist. That's their official stance. It has been for years. They stated they would recognise Israel in their election platform. They stated they would recognise Israel in all the Hamas-Fatah talks since 2008.

"The charter says bad things" is not an argument.

But certainly convenient to obsess over if you wish to demonise an entire population, I suppose.

(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
Quote:Symbolic, because they wanted an Israeli agreement in principle, with details settled later and all subject to Israeli approval.

You must be joking. Which country would sign on to a proposition that would ensure its destruction?

Only you keep obsessing over destruction. No one actually present at the talks seemed to think so.

(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  The right of return is an unreasonable and unacceptable demand.

Why?

(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  And Arafat was not an idiot, he knew exactly what this meant. He didn't sign on because he knew that if he would, his own people would kill him. He needed a way out to save face in the eyes of the international community, and so his refusal on the basis that he wasn't getting anything on the right of right was a face-saving device.

I am not joking. I am referring to the memoirs of both the chief Israeli negotiator and the chief American representative at those talks.

Do you have reason to disbelieve them?

You're certainly free to, but I am rather more inclined to trust their judgement of events than yours.

(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
Quote:Given the existence of such disparate viewpoints, is there a reason you adopt one so exclusively?

It's based on facts: the Palestinians declared war in 1948, that's a fact.

That is not a fact. Nice try, though. The neighbouring states did - after violence began. So that's a fact. But that isn't what you've claimed.

Israel is an exclusionary ethnic-nationalist state. To create that state on inhabitated land requires, necessarily, ethnic cleansing. That's also a fact.

(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  That they have continue this war since then, that's a fact.

Nope. How much war did the Palestinians make between 1967 and the first Intifada?

Not the neighbouring states. The actual Palestinians in actual Palestine.

(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  That they have sworn the destruction of the state of Israel, that's a fact.

At certain times in the past, certain states have done so. That is true. Some still refuse to extend diplomatic recognition. Partial credit!

No Palestinian organisation maintains such claims today.

(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  That they either tacitly approve or even enable Hamas to carry its attack on Israel, that's a fact.

Who is "they"?

(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  The Palestinians have declared war, have continued their fight to this day, then let them live with the atrocities. Don't come home to mama and complain.

So being occupied, resisting, and losing means they no longer have the right to self-determination.

(07-08-2014 04:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  Wrong. Considering that the Palestinians declared war and lost, it was a very, very generous offer. And the next round if ever there is one, the offer will be less, not more.

Ah, okay. So "just fuck 'em" is your bright idea for peace.

I mean, I guess we could bring back vae victis as the basis for international law. In theory that went out with colonialism, but hey, if we're dividing the world into good people and bad people then we might as well give the bad people what they deserve.

(07-08-2014 10:26 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 10:10 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Some of them seem to have some bright ideas.

Time and the status quo will certainly "resolve" the issue, after a fashion...

The proposed solution, "humanitarian relocation of the non-belligerent Arab population, and extension of Israeli sovereignty over the region" would not be accepted by the international community, and more importantly, not acceptable by the US. Mind you, I'm not against that idea, but it's not feasible.

"Never Again to us" is so much easier to live by.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-08-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Going back and forth on details is clearly pointless.

The overarching point I have tried to emphasise is that events have causes. The actions of Israel and the various Palestinian groups do not occur in a vacuum. Understanding why people act is essential. "herp derp blame palestine 100%" is not helpful; it's the height of facile.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: