Should America Support Israel?
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10-08-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 09:30 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(07-08-2014 02:46 PM)Noonespecial Wrote:  The jewish people should have a state of their own.... somewhere. The problem is that they chose land that happened to have a lot of people already on it. They chose it because their "Holy" book said it is theirs. Unfortunately, other people have similar books saying the same thing.

So, if they bought a really nice piece of land in like say a corner of Brazil or Australia (probably) noone would have fought them.

So, now we have a fight that will NEVER end because of religious beliefs.

Sigh.

I hear your view but would comment that it is not based only on "religious beliefs"
The Jews were the last people to have a sovereign autonomous state called Judea according to secular accepted history which was renamed "Palestina" by the Roman conquerors. Subsequently Jews were in exile and forbidden to return by the Roman and then Byzantine successors who controlled the land. After the conquest of the Byzantine Empire "palestine" was a province of various Muslim caliphates which again restricted Jewish access & return. (there were some indigenous Jews throughout all these periods to various extents)
The late ottoman empire relaxed some of the Jewish restrictions for example by allowing the rebuilding of the ancient Jewish quarter in Jerusalem. Throughout these time periods populations in Palestine waxed & waned depending on who was conquering whom and various periods of stability in between.

From a secular point of view the re-establishment of Israel can have little to do with Biblical authenticity considering according to secular archeologists the exodus never happened and the "Israelite" population emerged from indigenous Canaanites. Even the biblical "Philistines" have an origin from Crete or other probably Aegean origin as part of the "sea people" which invaded the coastline but also integrated with Canaanites.
In any case - the emergence of Israel occurs more than 1200 years before its conquest by Rome with most of that time either compete Jewish sovereignty or various degrees of autonomy (eg under Israel the Persian Empire after Cyrus the Great reconquered it from Babylon)

...Hence the only logical place for a Jewish state is were it always has been - Israel regardless of religious beliefs.

Obviously the religious might agree with my secular version but add "God gave it to us" which obviously doesn't help much considering Muslim Palestinians will say God gave us the "Ummah" which is the greater Islamic commonwealth at the height of the Caliphate conquests of the Abbasid's, Umayyads, Fatimids and eventually Ottomans - and anywhere which was part of the Ummah must be defended for the sake of Allah. This makes negotiating somewhat challenging.

One problem there, the Jews are no longer just a race, they're a religion. The Jewish 'people' stopped being a homogeneous ethnic group long before the Zionists settlers arrived on the banks of the Jordan. Also, the Roman empire had it, and retained control of it through the Byzantines, which then moved to the Ottomans. Why don't the more recent Italian or Turkish people have a better claim to that land?

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10-08-2014, 09:50 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 09:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 09:30 AM)Baruch Wrote:  I hear your view but would comment that it is not based only on "religious beliefs"
The Jews were the last people to have a sovereign autonomous state called Judea according to secular accepted history which was renamed "Palestina" by the Roman conquerors. Subsequently Jews were in exile and forbidden to return by the Roman and then Byzantine successors who controlled the land. After the conquest of the Byzantine Empire "palestine" was a province of various Muslim caliphates which again restricted Jewish access & return. (there were some indigenous Jews throughout all these periods to various extents)
The late ottoman empire relaxed some of the Jewish restrictions for example by allowing the rebuilding of the ancient Jewish quarter in Jerusalem. Throughout these time periods populations in Palestine waxed & waned depending on who was conquering whom and various periods of stability in between.

From a secular point of view the re-establishment of Israel can have little to do with Biblical authenticity considering according to secular archeologists the exodus never happened and the "Israelite" population emerged from indigenous Canaanites. Even the biblical "Philistines" have an origin from Crete or other probably Aegean origin as part of the "sea people" which invaded the coastline but also integrated with Canaanites.
In any case - the emergence of Israel occurs more than 1200 years before its conquest by Rome with most of that time either compete Jewish sovereignty or various degrees of autonomy (eg under Israel the Persian Empire after Cyrus the Great reconquered it from Babylon)

...Hence the only logical place for a Jewish state is were it always has been - Israel regardless of religious beliefs.

Obviously the religious might agree with my secular version but add "God gave it to us" which obviously doesn't help much considering Muslim Palestinians will say God gave us the "Ummah" which is the greater Islamic commonwealth at the height of the Caliphate conquests of the Abbasid's, Umayyads, Fatimids and eventually Ottomans - and anywhere which was part of the Ummah must be defended for the sake of Allah. This makes negotiating somewhat challenging.

One problem there, the Jews are no longer just a race, they're a religion. The Jewish 'people' stopped being a homogeneous ethnic group long before the Zionists settlers arrived on the banks of the Jordan. Also, the Roman empire had it, and retained control of it through the Byzantines, which then moved to the Ottomans. Why don't the more recent Italian or Turkish people have a better claim to that land?

Frankly the original Israel was conquered and passed around far more often than the latter palestinians were so why should the remnant of those people (2000+ years removed and very diluted) have a better claim than the people that were actually on the land under the Ottomans and the British? The UN resolution is the only thing giving any legitimacy to Israel, trying to claim ancient precedence is as daft as if a Navajo showed up at your house and said his ancestors once roamed this land so your house should be his. Oh and The UN resolution is valid because the rest of the middle east was set up by League of Nations mandate so if the far more credible UN's mandate is void what does that say about their legitimacy?

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10-08-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 09:29 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 08:13 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Actually the likelihood had the British not intervened the mainly Arab areas would just become an extension of Jordan, Syria and Egypt.
The "throwing onto the sea" was the Arab deceleration by the invading Egyptian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian, Iraqi armies who had they won in 1948 would have killed all remaining Jews.

My statement, "the Jews would have overun the Arabs into the sea", is to be taken as hypothetical, and I mainly based myself on the fact that the Jews fought not only the Arabs inhabiting the region but militants that came from Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran and as far as Saudi Arabia. Subsequently the IDF has shown to be superior to the combined armies of these countries. Now, the Israelis never intended to drive the Arabs to the sea, and as you have pointed out, the Arabs rallying call at the time was in effect to drive the Jews into the sea.

Hopefully, this clears up that point.

IDF showed itself to be superior at a very heavy price due to a very high Jewish death toll in 1948 as a proportion relative to the total Jewish population as a whole. The IDF lost the battle for Latrun in 1948 which meant Jerusalem was lost with 100,000 Jews on the verge of starving to death in the Arab besieged Jewish quarter. (which has a long historical significance for Jews)
As it happens it was UN ceasefires which helped the British trained Jordanian Arab legion armies capture Jerusalem and destroy the Jewish Quarter. So the IDF was not so superior against the Jordanian forces and lost one of the most strategic battles for Jerusalem.

As for 1967 - if Israel did not respond with a pre-emptive attack to Nasser's hostility, threats and large Egyptian ground forces mobilized on the border it is unlikely Israel would have survived due to being overwhelmingly outnumbered if the fight was within Israeli territory.
Yes it was a smart move for the IDF/IAF to destroy the Egyptian air-force & SAM'S leaving tens of thousands of Egyptian ground forces sitting ducks in the desert with broken lines of communication and the only option being to retreat.

Again in the 1973 Yom Kippur war the IDF only turned the tables when Sadat made a critical error moving his mobile Egyptian ground force units not in sync with the SAM batteries, a massive mistake which eventually led to Israeli air superiority. If Sadat (or the Egyptian generals) did not do this Israels air-force would have been paralyzed and Egyptian Ground-forces would have entered Israel rather than intercepted in the Sinai by the IAF.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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10-08-2014, 10:21 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 09:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 09:30 AM)Baruch Wrote:  I hear your view but would comment that it is not based only on "religious beliefs"
The Jews were the last people to have a sovereign autonomous state called Judea according to secular accepted history which was renamed "Palestina" by the Roman conquerors. Subsequently Jews were in exile and forbidden to return by the Roman and then Byzantine successors who controlled the land. After the conquest of the Byzantine Empire "palestine" was a province of various Muslim caliphates which again restricted Jewish access & return. (there were some indigenous Jews throughout all these periods to various extents)
The late ottoman empire relaxed some of the Jewish restrictions for example by allowing the rebuilding of the ancient Jewish quarter in Jerusalem. Throughout these time periods populations in Palestine waxed & waned depending on who was conquering whom and various periods of stability in between.

From a secular point of view the re-establishment of Israel can have little to do with Biblical authenticity considering according to secular archeologists the exodus never happened and the "Israelite" population emerged from indigenous Canaanites. Even the biblical "Philistines" have an origin from Crete or other probably Aegean origin as part of the "sea people" which invaded the coastline but also integrated with Canaanites.
In any case - the emergence of Israel occurs more than 1200 years before its conquest by Rome with most of that time either compete Jewish sovereignty or various degrees of autonomy (eg under Israel the Persian Empire after Cyrus the Great reconquered it from Babylon)

...Hence the only logical place for a Jewish state is were it always has been - Israel regardless of religious beliefs.

Obviously the religious might agree with my secular version but add "God gave it to us" which obviously doesn't help much considering Muslim Palestinians will say God gave us the "Ummah" which is the greater Islamic commonwealth at the height of the Caliphate conquests of the Abbasid's, Umayyads, Fatimids and eventually Ottomans - and anywhere which was part of the Ummah must be defended for the sake of Allah. This makes negotiating somewhat challenging.

One problem there, the Jews are no longer just a race, they're a religion. The Jewish 'people' stopped being a homogeneous ethnic group long before the Zionists settlers arrived on the banks of the Jordan. Also, the Roman empire had it, and retained control of it through the Byzantines, which then moved to the Ottomans. Why don't the more recent Italian or Turkish people have a better claim to that land?

Jews were forbidden by various Empires from returning or living in the land (persecuted by Byzantines and restricted by various Muslim Caliphates) however Jews always maintained a nationalism which can be independent from the religion (although incorporated as daily practice into the religion).
Of course someone can find a religious interpretation & disavow any nationalism (eg Neturei Karta Jews) or Nationalist and disavow the religion (secular Israelis or reform Jews) or both orthodox & nationalist - there are many combinations.

Do those Turkish or Italian people who lets say went to Palestine within the Ottoman Empire have a nationalism & autonomous sovereignty for the land or just living in an ottoman province ???? Looks like these immigrants were just part of the ottoman Empire which when collapsed left a vacuum for who has sovereignty over the land. The British took over in the interim to fill the vacuum left by the Ottoman collapse. Previously there was never any "Palestinian state" which had sovereignty until the establishment of the PLO autonomous regions in recent times . Palestinian Nationalism came about following Jewish nationalism considering the land never had any autonomous sovereignty whilst under the control of the various empires and caliphates over the last 2000 years.

Like wise - millions of Jews fleeing Arab countries and now living in Israel are to all intents and purposes Israelis & part of a legitimate sovereign country - and even more so for their Children. These Jews have been living in Arab countries which had full sovereignty (such as Iraq & Egypt) well before Islam even began and had all their properties seized leaving them as refugees and their citizenship removed with no compensation. It is quite reasonable for them to live in Israel as an autonomous country considering it is part of their heritage and practical consequences of mistreatment by nationalist Arabs who joined the 1948 war to destroy any remaining Jews.

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10-08-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 09:52 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 09:29 AM)zaybu Wrote:  My statement, "the Jews would have overun the Arabs into the sea", is to be taken as hypothetical, and I mainly based myself on the fact that the Jews fought not only the Arabs inhabiting the region but militants that came from Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran and as far as Saudi Arabia. Subsequently the IDF has shown to be superior to the combined armies of these countries. Now, the Israelis never intended to drive the Arabs to the sea, and as you have pointed out, the Arabs rallying call at the time was in effect to drive the Jews into the sea.

Hopefully, this clears up that point.

IDF showed itself to be superior at a very heavy price due to a very high Jewish death toll in 1948 as a proportion relative to the total Jewish population as a whole. The IDF lost the battle for Latrun in 1948 which meant Jerusalem was lost with 100,000 Jews on the verge of starving to death in the Arab besieged Jewish quarter. (which has a long historical significance for Jews)
As it happens it was UN ceasefires which helped the British trained Jordanian Arab legion armies capture Jerusalem and destroy the Jewish Quarter. So the IDF was not so superior against the Jordanian forces and lost one of the most strategic battles for Jerusalem.

In those early days of the conflict ,the IDF was formed mainly from Haganah, Irgun, and the Lehi, all paramilitary groups that had been rivals. So getting their act together took some times before they could conduct war on the invading army. It's after that conflict that the IDF consolidated its strength and gain its reputation.

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10-08-2014, 10:36 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 09:40 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 09:30 AM)Baruch Wrote:  I hear your view but would comment that it is not based only on "religious beliefs"
The Jews were the last people to have a sovereign autonomous state called Judea according to secular accepted history which was renamed "Palestina" by the Roman conquerors. Subsequently Jews were in exile and forbidden to return by the Roman and then Byzantine successors who controlled the land. After the conquest of the Byzantine Empire "palestine" was a province of various Muslim caliphates which again restricted Jewish access & return. (there were some indigenous Jews throughout all these periods to various extents)
The late ottoman empire relaxed some of the Jewish restrictions for example by allowing the rebuilding of the ancient Jewish quarter in Jerusalem. Throughout these time periods populations in Palestine waxed & waned depending on who was conquering whom and various periods of stability in between.

From a secular point of view the re-establishment of Israel can have little to do with Biblical authenticity considering according to secular archeologists the exodus never happened and the "Israelite" population emerged from indigenous Canaanites. Even the biblical "Philistines" have an origin from Crete or other probably Aegean origin as part of the "sea people" which invaded the coastline but also integrated with Canaanites.
In any case - the emergence of Israel occurs more than 1200 years before its conquest by Rome with most of that time either compete Jewish sovereignty or various degrees of autonomy (eg under Israel the Persian Empire after Cyrus the Great reconquered it from Babylon)

...Hence the only logical place for a Jewish state is were it always has been - Israel regardless of religious beliefs.

Obviously the religious might agree with my secular version but add "God gave it to us" which obviously doesn't help much considering Muslim Palestinians will say God gave us the "Ummah" which is the greater Islamic commonwealth at the height of the Caliphate conquests of the Abbasid's, Umayyads, Fatimids and eventually Ottomans - and anywhere which was part of the Ummah must be defended for the sake of Allah. This makes negotiating somewhat challenging.

One problem there, the Jews are no longer just a race, they're a religion. The Jewish 'people' stopped being a homogeneous ethnic group long before the Zionists settlers arrived on the banks of the Jordan. Also, the Roman empire had it, and retained control of it through the Byzantines, which then moved to the Ottomans. Why don't the more recent Italian or Turkish people have a better claim to that land?

What's going on in Israel is a crusade. Christians feel they have to support Israel to be blessed and God hates the enemies of Israel. Oh and they want Israel to have more land and believe that God punishes America for not giving it to them and will bless America for supporting them.
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10-08-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 10:36 AM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Christians feel they have to support Israel to be blessed and God hates the enemies of Israel. Oh and they want Israel to have more land and believe that God punishes America for not giving it to them and will bless America for supporting them.

Some facts to be considered in regard to US foreign aid:

Israel: $3.1 B


Afghanistan: $12.8 B
Iraq: $1.9 B
Egypt: $1.4B
Pakistan: $1.2 B
Jordan: $1.1 B
West Bank/Gaza: $0.5 B

So the US helps the Islamic countries far more than Israel.

So why singling out Israel?!??

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10-08-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed
September 29, 2000 - Present

131 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,886 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that approximately 12 times more Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli children

Israelis and Palestinians Killed
September 29, 2000 - Present
Chart showing that 6 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.

1,179 Israelis and at least 8,407 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)

Israelis and Palestinians Injured
September 29, 2000 - Present

8,600 Israelis and 63,879 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information.)
Chart showing that Palestinians are injured at least six times more often than Israelis.

Daily U.S. Military Aid to Israel and the Palestinians
Fiscal Year 2013
Chart showing that the United States gives Israel $8.2 million per day in military aid and no military aid to the Palestinians.

During Fiscal Year 2013, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $8.5 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians
. (View Sources & More Information)

UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
1955 - 1992

Israel has been targeted by at least 77 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by 1. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that Israel has been targeted by 77 UN resolutions, while the Palestinians have been targeted by 1.

Current Number of Political Prisoners and Detainees
Chart showing that Israel is holding 5,271 Palestinians prisoner.

0 Israelis are possibly being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 6,000 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Sources & More Information)

Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
1967 - Present

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and at least 28,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that more than 28,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished, compared to no Israeli homes.

Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates
Chart depicting the fact that the Palestinian unemployment is around 4 times the Israeli unemployment rate.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 5.8%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 22.5% and 27.9% in Gaza. (View Sources & More Information)

Current Illegal Settlements on the Other’s Land

Israel currently has 262 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that Israel has 227 Jewish-only settlements on Palestinian land.
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10-08-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Of course America spends more on the wars we start like Iraq and Afghanistan.

How much military aid does America give to the Arab countries if you don't include the military we are trying (or tried) to raise in Iraq and Afghanistan so we could get the fuck out of there?
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10-08-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 10:57 AM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Of course America spends more on the wars we start like Iraq and Afghanistan.

How much military aid does America give to the Arab countries if you don't include the military we are trying (or tried) to raise in Iraq and Afghanistan so we could get the fuck out of there?

More than we give to Israel.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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