Should America Support Israel?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
30-07-2014, 01:49 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
You should also take note that journalists are heavily restricted in Gaza about what they can report due to Hamas over-viewing the media reporting and sabotaging any possible objectivity. Hamas is after all a fascist style totalitarian regime and this fits precisely into their agenda for controlling the media.

Eg An Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati's report backing the Israeli version of events in the Shati school park rocket attack i.e Hamas/other militant rockets hit the area killing Palestinians due to a misfired rocket. The BBC or CNN don't tell you this, falsify assume any report from Gaza is objective and sensationalize the civilian deaths not taking into account it is part of Hamas propaganda.

You can follow the journalist on twitter.
http://www.israellycool.com/2014/07/29/w...the-truth/
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/N...9ielGPG-o0

In contrast Israel has a much more free, western style media reporting with groups opposed to the Israel having their say and allowed to publicly demonstrate (which they do) Just imagine what would happen if Gaza's civilians opposed to Hamas terrorists demonstrated in defiance - they would be massacred by Hamas/Islamic Jihad or other militants - this is a no brainer. (Hamas has already murdered so called "collaborators" with Israel in Gaza - which is a broad term which could include any criticism of the Hamas regime)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-07-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Hamas is an ugly word to me and I could never think highly of that organization. However, Israeli soldiers slaughter hundreds of women and children far more often than those involved with Hamas.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(30-07-2014 04:23 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Hamas is an ugly word to me and I could never think highly of that organization. However, Israeli soldiers slaughter hundreds of women and children far more often than those involved with Hamas.

I will repeat what I wrote before - because it has wider scope than just this Hamas/Israel war - but any conflict.

Quote:The fact that there is a higher civilian casualty rate in Gaza than Israel does not give Hamas the moral high ground - its not an equation based on numbers, that is appalling moral philosophy. Numbers of casualties don't tell you anything about intentions, who initiates a conflict, using civilians as human shields and methods used to protect civilians.
Eg: In the 1st Gulf war Iraq has some 40 x the casualties including many civilians than the coalition to remove saddam from Kuwait (in fact the coalition has zero civilian casualties from USA/NATO etc) - does that make Saddam's invasion of Kuwait "40 x more moral" - clearly this is absurd !!! I use this example because it is generally accepted this was a "just war" post Saddams invasion of Kuwait. Yes if it was not for oil resources Kuwait may have not been "defended" by a coalition, but besides that more Iraqi civilians dying does not make Saddam the victim & coalition "barbaric murders of more innocents"

As for Israel - There is strong evidence that tactics are used by the IDF to prevent civilian casualties and civilians are not purposefully targeted - if they were then the civilian casualties would be in the 10,000's. Civilian casualties can occur for many reasons other than deliberate intentional targeting - some are justifiable according to the Geneva convention and occur in any war no matter how legitimate the war is.
(unless your a hardcore pacifist - a major exception such as in the Jainism religion - that has its own set of serious problems and can also be barbaric by being passive & not engaging in an aggressor deliberately killing civilians)
Eg in some cases there can be accidents such as when friendly fire occurs killing ones own troops - in the same way civilians can die. There can be negligence, human shields, and enemy deliberately choosing its front line in the most built up civilian area as defense, child soldiers, non negligent accidents - many reasons which are all not deliberate killing of civilians.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Baruch's post
01-08-2014, 12:26 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Dont listen to Baruch's bull about narratives. The situation is very clear. Read through these two amnesty international reports to start with. I can give you other reports, if you want, amongst others UN reports.

Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories:

"The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory (the West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip) is in its fifth decade and the undercurrent of violence and inherent abuses of fundamental human rights and disregard for international law inherent in any long-standing military occupation is presented by both sides. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of the violence in the region."

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/count...erritories

Trigger-happy: Israel's use of excessive force in the West Bank:

"This report focuses on the use of excessive force by Israeli forces in the West Bank since the beginning of 2011. In doing so, it details cases of killings and injuries by Israeli forces of Palestinian civilians in the context of protests in the West Bank against Israel's continuing military occupation of the Palestinian territories, illegal Israeli settlements and the fence/wall, as well as Israel's treatment of Palestinian prisoners and detainees and violence against Palestinians by Israeli settlers.

Israel's policy of settling its civilians on occupied land violates the Fourth Geneva Convention and is considered a war crime according to the statute of the International Criminal Court"


http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/repor...-west-bank


After reading these reports, choices should be rather obvious, if you are a moral person.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2014, 12:30 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2014 01:10 PM by Youkay.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Here is a UN OCHA report on the Gaza emergency. Read it and understand how dire and miserable the situation is.

1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering.

"Of increasing concern is the high frequency of incidents where humanitarian relief personnel and objects have come under attack. Yesterday afternoon, a rescue team that arrived at a house in eastern Gaza city (Ash Shuja’iyeh) to evacuate people wounded and killed, were reportedly shelled by Israeli forces, killing an ambulance driver, a paramedic and a civil defence staff."

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_op...8_2014.pdf

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2014, 12:45 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
here is another report by UN Human Rights

Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, Richard Falk

An abiding theme of the reports of the Special Rapporteur during the past six years has been the consistent failure of Israel to comply with clear legal standards embodied in the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Fourth Geneva Convention) and elsewhere in international humanitarian law and international human rights law. This pattern, as will be detailed below, is flagrant in relation to the wall, settlements, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, water and land resources, and the human rights of Palestinians living under occupation.

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/G...penElement



Again, once you have informed yourself from proper sources and not from media propaganda like some other people on this forum that protect Israel so vehemently, you will find your choices clear.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-08-2014, 11:03 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Knowing almost nothing about the conflict, my only observation is that the Israelis don't seem to need our help. They are killing the Palestinians at a rate of 100 to 1, and have been doing so for many years. It isn't a war, it's an insurgency, and we all know how well those things go with american involvement. I would support selling defensive systems and weapons to Israel, but I don't think Israel needs offensive weapons. They are clearly the dominant military force in the region.

There doesn't seem to be a formula for fighting a gorilla warfare insurgency and terrorist force like Hamas. Blowing up innocents in a whack-a-mole game of "kill the jihadi" is what we and Israel have been trying to do, it that clearly doesn't work. No more sure fire way to create future terrorists then to kill innocent peoples in the crossfire. I think the future for Israel, and well as in the United States, is to direct military strength inward. Focus on securing borders and preventing attack. Offensive measures are costly in both lives and money and only seem to compound the problem.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2014, 12:29 AM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2014 12:37 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Your observations, even though you haven't informed yourself about the conflict, are partially correct. But informing yourself would never hurt. Better to have a sophisticated opinion than to guess wildly in the dark and be steared this and that direction by people who think to know what they are talking about. I truly encourage you to read at least the few reports I posted, for your own sake and for the sake of innocent people being slaughtered like cattle.

The context you should never forget is that Israel is continuing an illegitimate occuppation of Palestine for almost 5 decades now. As such, Israel can not even THINK of using the word "in defence", because as a occuppational force, they are the prime-aggressors. By international law, and this is freely accepted among international institutions, people who are being occuppied have a right to fight for self-determination. Therefore, whatever resistance Hamas shows against Israel, by international law, they are justified. Of course, striking civilians is a condemnable action.

You are talking about borders of Israel. Obviously, you don't know that the borders that Israel has drawn in violation of international law are not recognized by ANYONE except Israel. Israel is occuppying Palestine territory and has therefore no right to "protect" (this is not even the right word in context) its borders.

Seriously, read the reports by UN OCHA and Amnesty International. After that, I am happy to provide you with more informative reports on the TRUTH about this conflict.


So the question is: Should USA support a colonial occuppational force like Israel? It would be very hypocritical in my opinion, if a country especially with the history of USA would give support to an imperialist nation. So therefore, my conclusion based on simple facts and not make-belief wishful propaganda like Baruch is spreading without using his brain even once, is that USA should cut all its support for Israel until Israel reigns in and stops its occuppation.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed
September 29, 2000 - Present

131 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,886 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that approximately 12 times more Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli children

Israelis and Palestinians Killed
September 29, 2000 - Present
Chart showing that 6 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.

1,179 Israelis and at least 8,407 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)

Israelis and Palestinians Injured
September 29, 2000 - Present

8,600 Israelis and 63,879 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information.)
Chart showing that Palestinians are injured at least six times more often than Israelis.

Daily U.S. Military Aid to Israel and the Palestinians
Fiscal Year 2013
Chart showing that the United States gives Israel $8.2 million per day in military aid and no military aid to the Palestinians.

During Fiscal Year 2013, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $8.5 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians. (View Sources & More Information)

UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
1955 - 1992

Israel has been targeted by at least 77 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by 1. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that Israel has been targeted by 77 UN resolutions, while the Palestinians have been targeted by 1.

Current Number of Political Prisoners and Detainees
Chart showing that Israel is holding 5,271 Palestinians prisoner.

0 Israelis are possibly being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 6,000 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Sources & More Information)

Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
1967 - Present

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and at least 28,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that more than 28,000 Palestinian homes have been demolished, compared to no Israeli homes.

Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates
Chart depicting the fact that the Palestinian unemployment is around 4 times the Israeli unemployment rate.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 5.8%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 22.5% and 27.9% in Gaza. (View Sources & More Information)

Current Illegal Settlements on the Other’s Land

Israel currently has 262 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (View Sources & More Information)
Chart showing that Israel has 227 Jewish-only settlements on Palestinian land.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
[Image: childrenkilledindex.png]
Children killed
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: