Should America Support Israel?
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12-08-2014, 04:53 AM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 04:56 AM by Gaest.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(11-08-2014 10:25 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(11-08-2014 06:51 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Well I really am tired of Jews and Christians trying to claim this conflict has nothing to do with religion. If as some claim this is strategy about oil, then the common person inside both boarders and the supporters of both sides are being duped by the rich oil companies and the players. It would simply amount to rich old people convincing the working class and poor to murder to keep them rich.

For the Jews this is a secular conflict, but for Hamas this is a holy war.

Keep telling yourself that... You really need to get out of the bubble you have been living in.

Advance of the Zealots: The Growing Influence of the Ultra-Orthodox in Israel (my highlite):

"At issue is a culture war that has been festering since the country's establishment, because it is still unclear today what exactly Israel is supposed to be: a theocracy for Jews? Or a democratic sovereign state? The orthodox appear to be on the road to winning this fundamental battle of principles.

Although they are a minority, with only 10 percent of the population, their birth rate is almost three times as high as that of secular Jews. If this remains the case, the Haredim will make up a third of the population in less than 50 years. A quarter of Jewish first-graders are already ultra-orthodox. Forty percent of the members of parliament in the coalition government, as well as 40 percent of new army officers and soldiers in combat units are orthodox. This gives them a disproportionately large amount of influence, which they utilize.

Even in the army, women are now being assigned to units with ultra-orthodox soldiers with decreasing frequency. A few months ago, religious officer candidates left a party where women were singing, saying that this could lead to impure thoughts. An influential rabbi said afterwards that he would rather stand before a firing squad than listen to a woman singing.

Since then, members of parliament, generals and rabbis have addressed the issue of women singing. Israel's chief rabbi has released an eight-page religious opinion, in which he argues that the army should prohibit women from singing when religious students are listening. A lawmaker from the "Party of Sephardic Torah Guardians," or Shas, proposed that religious soldiers be provided with earplugs in the future.

Shas is led by 91-year-old Rabbi Ovadia Josef, who is known for underscoring his comments with slaps in the face. His son, also a rabbi, seriously believes that women should not be allowed to drive. Far from being an outsider, Josef is one of the most powerful men in Israel, and his party has been part of almost every government in the last two decades, including the current government. Prime ministers bow to him when they ask for his approval of decisions involving war and peace."

And here's a piece on the growing orthodoxy in the military... Which is not pretty, but might help explain some of the stuff they have been up to lately. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/0...G720120305
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12-08-2014, 06:10 AM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 06:28 AM by Chas.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 05:45 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(09-08-2014 07:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not everyone would agree with that. Some would say the U.N. had no authority to steal Palestine and give it to foreigners.

It wasn't as simple as that. Palestine was under the Ottoman Empire until the end of WW1. After the treaty of Versailles, it became a British mandate. And at the end of WW2, the UK being bankrupted could no longer afford to administer that part of the world and asked the UN to make a ruling on it before the Brits would depart. You have to realize that between the two wars, there were massacres committed by both groups. And without the British presence, that region would have been in total chaos, and most likely, the Jews would have overun the Arabs into the sea. So the partition was necessary at the times.

I do realize that - I am aware of the history.

The indigenous people were dispossessed. My statement stands.

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12-08-2014, 06:15 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 08:13 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Also be aware that most of Israel's Jewish population come from displaced Jews from Arab countries fleeing persecution such as Iraq, Syria and Egypt.
Just between 1948 and 1951 this amounted to 56% of the total immigration
These Jews were refugees with properties & wealth confiscated by Arab regimes who ended up in Israel with virtually nothing and no Arab compensation or UNWRA help.

I don't think that is accurate. The majority of the population are Ashkenazim and Sephardim - European Jews.

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12-08-2014, 06:22 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(10-08-2014 09:30 AM)Baruch Wrote:  [quo
...Hence the only logical place for a Jewish state is were it always has been - Israel regardless of religious beliefs.

Except that it hasn't 'always been'. And why do you insist that there should be a Jewish state?

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12-08-2014, 06:46 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
I do not buy Netenyahu claiming Israel being a secular state while publicly stating that Israels laws will be based on the Talmud. That is a specific book to ONE religion, the Hebrew religion, there is no way around it, it still amounts to government favoritism over one group of people over another.

If "German state" or "Germans are god's chosen people" or "Arab state, or Muslims are Allah's chosen people" or "Christian nation" or "Christians are God's chosen people" make no sense for Jews to want to live under as minorities, then maybe they should leave their national law protecting pluralism at "freedom of religion" without name dropping and winking at one group over another.

"We are not fascists" isn't an argument, not even when I argue with Christians about why it is bad t.o claim "Christian nation". It is simply a matter of not using language that sets up a social pecking order. Any Jew old enough in the west to know the bigotry aimed at them should be able to understand my advise to not do the same thing. If one is to claim another is equal then don't set up social pecking orders.

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12-08-2014, 06:49 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 06:22 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 09:30 AM)Baruch Wrote:  [quo
...Hence the only logical place for a Jewish state is were it always has been - Israel regardless of religious beliefs.

Except that it hasn't 'always been'. And why do you insist that there should be a Jewish state?

BINGO,

The secular west protects religious pluralism and the only way that is done is by the government simply leaving the language neutral without name dropping winking at one group.

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12-08-2014, 09:52 AM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2014 09:55 AM by zaybu.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 06:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 05:45 AM)zaybu Wrote:  It wasn't as simple as that. Palestine was under the Ottoman Empire until the end of WW1. After the treaty of Versailles, it became a British mandate. And at the end of WW2, the UK being bankrupted could no longer afford to administer that part of the world and asked the UN to make a ruling on it before the Brits would depart. You have to realize that between the two wars, there were massacres committed by both groups. And without the British presence, that region would have been in total chaos, and most likely, the Jews would have overun the Arabs into the sea. So the partition was necessary at the times.

I do realize that - I am aware of the history.

The indigenous people were dispossessed. My statement stands.

When the Jews immigated to Palestine, a British mandate at the times, they bought the land from Arabs eager to sell their properties at market value.

During the war of 1948, they were some Palestinians who were expelled, and many more fled the area. However, there were just as many Jews living in Arab countries who were dispossessed and exiled. These were able to immigrated to the new state of Israel. So if Arabs were dispossessed, so were the Jews.

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12-08-2014, 10:06 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 09:52 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 06:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  I do realize that - I am aware of the history.

The indigenous people were dispossessed. My statement stands.

When the Jews immigated to Palestine, a British mandate at the times, they bought the land from Arabs eager to sell their properties at market value.

During the war of 1948, they were some Palestinians who were expelled, and many more fled the area. However, there were just as many Jews living in Arab countries who were dispossessed and exiled. These were able to immigrated to the new state of Israel. So if Arabs were dispossessed, so were the Jews.

Two wrongs make a right? Facepalm

The Palestinians didn't dispossess anyone, so there is no justification for dispossessing them.

They had been conquered and re-conquered, and conquered yet again by the U.N.

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12-08-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 10:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 09:52 AM)zaybu Wrote:  When the Jews immigated to Palestine, a British mandate at the times, they bought the land from Arabs eager to sell their properties at market value.

During the war of 1948, they were some Palestinians who were expelled, and many more fled the area. However, there were just as many Jews living in Arab countries who were dispossessed and exiled. These were able to immigrated to the new state of Israel. So if Arabs were dispossessed, so were the Jews.

Two wrongs make a right? Facepalm

The Palestinians didn't dispossess anyone, so there is no justification for dispossessing them.

They had been conquered and re-conquered, and conquered yet again by the U.N.

In what period of history? Arab Islam is not as old as the Hebrew religion. That land has constantly changed hands, and prior to either religions existing it was occupied by polytheists.

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12-08-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(11-08-2014 09:44 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-08-2014 05:28 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Jewish in this sense refers to an ethnicity not religion.

Try telling that to the fundamentalist rabbis that would rather kill all the Palestinians rather than cede any part of Jerusalem... Drinking Beverage

Remember folks: It's only Holy War when the people with brown skin do it! Thanks imperialism!
Something to consider.Consider
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