Should America Support Israel?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-08-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 11:00 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 10:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  Two wrongs make a right? Facepalm

The Palestinians didn't dispossess anyone, so there is no justification for dispossessing them.

They had been conquered and re-conquered, and conquered yet again by the U.N.

In what period of history? Arab Islam is not as old as the Hebrew religion. That land has constantly changed hands, and prior to either religions existing it was occupied by polytheists.
More food for thought.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-08-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 10:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 09:52 AM)zaybu Wrote:  When the Jews immigated to Palestine, a British mandate at the times, they bought the land from Arabs eager to sell their properties at market value.

During the war of 1948, they were some Palestinians who were expelled, and many more fled the area. However, there were just as many Jews living in Arab countries who were dispossessed and exiled. These were able to immigrated to the new state of Israel. So if Arabs were dispossessed, so were the Jews.

Two wrongs make a right? Facepalm

It's wrong to point out that only the Palestinians were dispossessed, when Jews were also dispossessed.

My blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-08-2014, 12:28 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 12:14 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 10:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  Two wrongs make a right? Facepalm

It's wrong to point out that only the Palestinians were dispossessed, when Jews were also dispossessed.

Not by the Palestinians.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
12-08-2014, 12:46 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 12:14 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 10:06 AM)Chas Wrote:  Two wrongs make a right? Facepalm

It's wrong to point out that only the Palestinians were dispossessed, when Jews were also dispossessed.

The subject is Israel, not other nations. Do try to stay on point.

So, no, I am not wrong.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-08-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(11-08-2014 10:25 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(11-08-2014 06:51 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Well I really am tired of Jews and Christians trying to claim this conflict has nothing to do with religion. If as some claim this is strategy about oil, then the common person inside both boarders and the supporters of both sides are being duped by the rich oil companies and the players. It would simply amount to rich old people convincing the working class and poor to murder to keep them rich.

For the Jews this is a secular conflict, but for Hamas this is a holy war.

For most Jews its a secular conflict because Israel & specifically most of the government are secular (many are agnostic/atheist or reform, few orthodox). However I would not generalize the issue because there are right wing religious Jews for whom it is a religious conflict event though they are a minority of the population.
Quite right that for Hamas/Islamic Jihad it is totally religious fundamentalist Islam. Even for most Palestinians not affiliated with Hamas it is religious considering there are few who are atheists,agnostics or affiliated with completely secular politics. Christian Arab Palestinians whilst having grievances towards Israel are hardly involved in terrorist activities - I don't recall any Christian Suicide bombers blowing themselves up within Israel on buses, shops & markets !!!!!
Christian-Arab Israeli citizens are also quite well integrated within Israeli society and would never dream of swapping sides & live amongst Muslims for obvious reasons. Same with Druze-Arab Israeli citizens of whom some 80% serve in the Israeli Army, these Arabs are better protected in Israel than any of the surrounding countries. (Sunni Muslims especially generally despise the Druze Arabs seeing them as heretics and persecute them - hence why even SYrian Druze Arabs have sided with Assad regime as "the better of two evils" )

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-08-2014, 03:44 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 12:28 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 12:14 PM)zaybu Wrote:  It's wrong to point out that only the Palestinians were dispossessed, when Jews were also dispossessed.

Not by the Palestinians.

I would strongly disagree - 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews were dispossessed from Arab countries - especially Iraq even before 1948 due to persecution. These Jews had their properties & finances confiscated with losses FAR, FAR exceeding those of Palestinians considering many of these Jews were wealthy/upper middle class within far larger economies. Many of these Arab countries were directly involved in the 1948 war - specifically Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan which makes them culpable. These Arab countries never compensated any of these Jewish refugee & neither did UNWRA.

I am NOT discussing any European Jews here - even though I would also add that certain factions of the Nationalist Palestinian-Arab pre-1948 riots & pogroms were led by Nazi supporters such as Haj Amin al-Husseini which for all intents and purposes makes them culpable for European refugees (even though this is more symbolic than actually creating those European Jewish refugees unlike Jewish refugees from Arab countries)

In contrast UNWRA perpetuates the Palestinian refugee problem by treating Palestinian refugees unlike any other refugees in the world - specifically by having "perpetual refugee status passes down the male line" - nowhere else in the world has this.
see
just to get an idea of the difference between UNWRA and UNHCO see this:
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q...8740,d.ZGU

and this:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q...8740,d.ZGU

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Baruch's post
12-08-2014, 03:48 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 03:44 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I am NOT discussing any European Jews here - even though I would also add that certain factions of the Nationalist Palestinian-Arab pre-1948 riots & pogroms were led by Nazi supporters such as Haj Amin al-Husseini which for all intents and purposes makes them culpable for European refugees (even though this is more symbolic than actually creating those European Jewish refugees unlike Jewish refugees from Arab countries)

And we're not discussing Arab countries here - this is about Israel and Palestine. Do try to stay on track.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-08-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 11:54 AM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 11:00 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  In what period of history? Arab Islam is not as old as the Hebrew religion. That land has constantly changed hands, and prior to either religions existing it was occupied by polytheists.
More food for thought.

Yes, but the only people to have a soverign independent/autonomous state were the Jews.
The land has changed hands across the centuries but only as a province controlled by external powers be it Roman, Byzantine, various Caliphates/Sultanates or British.

If you want to go back to the polytheist then it was either Canaanite tribal city states or at various times controlled by external powers such as Egypt or the Hittite Empire (and briefly by the Babylonians + Assyrian Empire)

According to most secular archeologist consensus: - Israel emerged from the indigenous Canaanite population (basically some city states were more successful & controlled the land at some threshold point around 1200-1000 BCE ) i.e the "Exodus" is mostly fiction. [There may be a kernel of truth if ancient Israel is associated with Hyksos - but they also originated from the Levant/Canaan & briefly controlled some Egyptian Dynasties before leaving]

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-08-2014, 04:16 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 04:00 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 11:54 AM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  More food for thought.

Yes, but the only people to have a soverign independent/autonomous state were the Jews.
The land has changed hands across the centuries but only as a province controlled by external powers be it Roman, Byzantine, various Caliphates/Sultanates or British.

If you want to go back to the polytheist then it was either Canaanite tribal city states or at various times controlled by external powers such as Egypt or the Hittite Empire (and briefly by the Babylonians + Assyrian Empire)

According to most secular archeologist consensus: - Israel emerged from the indigenous Canaanite population (basically some city states were more successful & controlled the land at some threshold point around 1200-1000 BCE ) i.e the "Exodus" is mostly fiction. [There may be a kernel of truth if ancient Israel is associated with Hyksos - but they also originated from the Levant/Canaan & briefly controlled some Egyptian Dynasties before leaving]

If you have to go back to 100 BCE to make this claim it is irrelevant.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
12-08-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 03:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 03:44 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I am NOT discussing any European Jews here - even though I would also add that certain factions of the Nationalist Palestinian-Arab pre-1948 riots & pogroms were led by Nazi supporters such as Haj Amin al-Husseini which for all intents and purposes makes them culpable for European refugees (even though this is more symbolic than actually creating those European Jewish refugees unlike Jewish refugees from Arab countries)

And we're not discussing Arab countries here - this is about Israel and Palestine. Do try to stay on track.

You are missing the point - "Palestine" did not exist as an autonomous country but was left as part of the vacuum after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire under brief British control after WW1. I.e the area had no "autonomous" state rule by anyone.
The rest of the Arab world and more broadly Muslim world see it as part of the "Islamic Ummah" - in this sense the rest of the Arab states are ON TRACK and ON TOPIC within responsibility for dispossession of up to a million Jews..especially because they were directly involved in the 1948 war.
Consider that "Palestine" was going to be part of "Trans-Jordan" when the British offered the Hashemite tribe national independence prior to the Balfour deceleration & events leading up to 1948 & "Jordanian" Independence. (the collective land was trans-jordan only later divided into two East & West of the Jordan river)

The Islamic Ummah's collapsed after WW1 leading to a power vacuum. You can see this by the fact Jordan Annexed the West Bank & Egypt annexed Gaza until 1948 and never allowed autonomous Palestinian rule [they gave Arabs West of the Jordan River Jordanian citizenship with severely limited rights]. Only after the Oslo accords did Palestinians gain autonomous self rule for the first time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanian_o..._West_Bank

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRhOs7rUrS5bRKvWS7clR7...gNs5ZwpVef]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: