Should America Support Israel?
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12-08-2014, 04:41 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 04:16 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 04:00 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Yes, but the only people to have a soverign independent/autonomous state were the Jews.
The land has changed hands across the centuries but only as a province controlled by external powers be it Roman, Byzantine, various Caliphates/Sultanates or British.

If you want to go back to the polytheist then it was either Canaanite tribal city states or at various times controlled by external powers such as Egypt or the Hittite Empire (and briefly by the Babylonians + Assyrian Empire)

According to most secular archeologist consensus: - Israel emerged from the indigenous Canaanite population (basically some city states were more successful & controlled the land at some threshold point around 1200-1000 BCE ) i.e the "Exodus" is mostly fiction. [There may be a kernel of truth if ancient Israel is associated with Hyksos - but they also originated from the Levant/Canaan & briefly controlled some Egyptian Dynasties before leaving]

If you have to go back to 100 BCE to make this claim it is irrelevant.

The claim is relevant because Jews have a continuous history linking themselves with the land and also had continuous presence since 100CE even though a minority due to being banned from returning by various Empires which controlled the land (Byzantine followed by various Caliphates).
Even the medieval period had a Jewish flourishing in some cities such as Tzfat.
If Muslims & Christians did not restrict Jews in places like Jerusalem the Jews would have easily been the Majority a very long time ago - centuries ago !

One reason Jews found it easier to purchase land towards the end of the 18th century & onwards and return during the late ottoman empire was because Ottoman rule relaxed these restrictions against Jews (which also fueled Zionism seeing an opportunity to return which was unavailable previously)
There are also some simple pragmatic considerations such as transport being much easier than medieval times.

An interesting conjecture would be what if Jews returned after the devastation left behind from the Mongol-Arab wars....with very low population in places like Jerusalem & weakened Momluk dynasty this would be an interesting conjecture. Pre-Islamic Palestine was extremely hostile to Jews under the Byzantines so this is unlikely to be a time for growing Jewish populations (even though Jews were present at the time living under Christian rule)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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12-08-2014, 05:00 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 12:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 12:14 PM)zaybu Wrote:  It's wrong to point out that only the Palestinians were dispossessed, when Jews were also dispossessed.

The subject is Israel, not other nations. Do try to stay on point.

So, no, I am not wrong.

You're wrong. The Arabs, now known as Palestinians, were part of Jordan in those days, a country along with Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia, that declared war on Israel and the Jews from those countries were dispossessed. When those Jews are compensated then we'll talk about compensating the Palestinians. As this well never happen, then I suggest you kiss goodbye to any compensation for the Palestinians.

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12-08-2014, 05:18 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 04:41 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 04:16 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  If you have to go back to 100 BCE to make this claim it is irrelevant.

The claim is relevant because Jews have a continuous history linking themselves with the land and also had continuous presence since 100CE even though a minority due to being banned from returning by various Empires which controlled the land (Byzantine followed by various Caliphates).
Even the medieval period had a Jewish flourishing in some cities such as Tzfat.
If Muslims & Christians did not restrict Jews in places like Jerusalem the Jews would have easily been the Majority a very long time ago - centuries ago !

One reason Jews found it easier to purchase land towards the end of the 18th century & onwards and return during the late ottoman empire was because Ottoman rule relaxed these restrictions against Jews (which also fueled Zionism seeing an opportunity to return which was unavailable previously)
There are also some simple pragmatic considerations such as transport being much easier than medieval times.

An interesting conjecture would be what if Jews returned after the devastation left behind from the Mongol-Arab wars....with very low population in places like Jerusalem & weakened Momluk dynasty this would be an interesting conjecture. Pre-Islamic Palestine was extremely hostile to Jews under the Byzantines so this is unlikely to be a time for growing Jewish populations (even though Jews were present at the time living under Christian rule)
wow you are a history buff. I'm very surprised about the Ottoman Empire relaxing those restrictions. the Ottoman Empire was so incredibly bloodthirsty and barbaric it just surprises me. could you go into more detail about precisely what the Ottoman Empire changed about the policy toward Jews?
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12-08-2014, 06:37 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 05:18 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 04:41 PM)Baruch Wrote:  The claim is relevant because Jews have a continuous history linking themselves with the land and also had continuous presence since 100CE even though a minority due to being banned from returning by various Empires which controlled the land (Byzantine followed by various Caliphates).
Even the medieval period had a Jewish flourishing in some cities such as Tzfat.
If Muslims & Christians did not restrict Jews in places like Jerusalem the Jews would have easily been the Majority a very long time ago - centuries ago !

One reason Jews found it easier to purchase land towards the end of the 18th century & onwards and return during the late ottoman empire was because Ottoman rule relaxed these restrictions against Jews (which also fueled Zionism seeing an opportunity to return which was unavailable previously)
There are also some simple pragmatic considerations such as transport being much easier than medieval times.

An interesting conjecture would be what if Jews returned after the devastation left behind from the Mongol-Arab wars....with very low population in places like Jerusalem & weakened Momluk dynasty this would be an interesting conjecture. Pre-Islamic Palestine was extremely hostile to Jews under the Byzantines so this is unlikely to be a time for growing Jewish populations (even though Jews were present at the time living under Christian rule)
wow you are a history buff. I'm very surprised about the Ottoman Empire relaxing those restrictions. the Ottoman Empire was so incredibly bloodthirsty and barbaric it just surprises me. could you go into more detail about precisely what the Ottoman Empire changed about the policy toward Jews?

The "Ottoman Empire" is actually a set of Dynasties - all somewhat different from each other depending on the Sultans.
Just have a look at this to get an idea of populations just for Jerusalem religious/ethnic groups:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic..._Jerusalem
Its utterly ridiculous to say Jews have no claim or history "other than 100CE" & the time period involved makes any claim irrelevant considering a significant portion of the population was Jewish *AND* there were Jewish restrictions/limitations & persecutions during the Christian & Somewhat within various Islamic rulers/Caliphates/Sultanates. Also THE POPULATIONS ARE EXTREMELY SMALL throughout the region until the 20th century !!!!!!! Had the Jews has opportunities to increase numbers prior to the 19th century they would have.

The key point is that the last people to have an autonomous independent soverign state was Israel (or technically Judea) Its not like there were even "Palestinians" wanting an independent country from the Ottoman Empire over the last few centuries because Palestinian nationalism followed Jewish nationalism after the vacuum left behind once the Ottoman Empire collapsed.

To answer your question:
Page 12 describes some of the ottoman administration issues within the Empire:
http://www.arab-israel-legal-issues.com/Chapter%208.pdf

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q...8740,d.ZGU

Basically the late Ottoman Empire by the 19th century had a weaker centralized administration over the Empire's periphery and was already somewhat struggling to keep the Empire intact - this is especially after the "young Turk revolution".
For a background see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Turk_Revolution
In some cases the Ottoman Turks favored Jewish immigration because this brought wealth and prosperity to the region and highly skilled labor which would benefit the Empire. Jewish philanthropists such as the Rothschild's also brought land which the local Turk authorities were quite happy to accept !
However Arab nationalism was also an issue not only within Palestine region but throughout the rest of the Ottoman Empires periphery following the Young Turk revolution and - especially after WW1.
Recall Turks were the overlords of the Arabs for centuries and during the late ottoman empire nationalism was a stronger cohesive force than Islam at the time.
Jews did not "conquer" anything from the Ottoman Empire but settled under legal rulings & purchases - only much later was there a conflict of interests once the Ottoman Empire was weaker and Arab nationalism grew once wealthier Arab "Effendin" landlords felt threatened by Jewish migration. The majority landless Arab "Peasant" population (Known as "Fellahin") would eventually follow the nationalist trend due to seeing Jewish neighborhoods becoming economically wealthier since many of the immigrant Jews were highly skilled or wealthy. [in common parlance this is called jealousy]
The Ottoman Empire collapsed....
Arab riots followed...
British & UN Division plans followed...
Arab invasions followed...
Israel followed....
The rest is history.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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12-08-2014, 06:59 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
thank you that's great!Thumbsup

To be continued..
f****** excellent!
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12-08-2014, 07:01 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 05:00 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 12:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  The subject is Israel, not other nations. Do try to stay on point.

So, no, I am not wrong.

You're wrong. The Arabs, now known as Palestinians, were part of Jordan in those days, a country along with Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia, that declared war on Israel and the Jews from those countries were dispossessed. When those Jews are compensated then we'll talk about compensating the Palestinians. As this well never happen, then I suggest you kiss goodbye to any compensation for the Palestinians.

Who said anything about compensation? Consider

And, no, Palestine was not part of Jordan in those, or any, days.

It matters not one whit to this discussion what other Arab countries did to Jews.
My point is, and has been, that the U.N. illegally dispossessed the Palestinians.

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12-08-2014, 07:26 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
An interesting conjecture would be what if the Ottoman Empire did not enter WW1 and the "Young Turk Revolution" was suppressed by the Ottomans stopping Arab nationalism throughout the empire ?
The Ottoman Empire's "Islamic fundamentalism" had already waned and Jewish legal immigration would continue to increase not stopped by the Ottomans rulers. From an Ottoman point of view as long as Jews complied with the ottoman authorities the Ottoman Empire's wealth would increase from Jewish taxation and skilled labor - the Ottomans wouldn't have anything to complain about = win/win.
The Jews would then easily become the majority population much like Kurdish regions within the Ottoman Empire.

For Jews the above scenario is perfectly acceptable [including religious + secular] with "Israel" becoming much like Judea under Ptolomaic Greek or Persian Achaemenid rule i.e semi-autonomous. Jews DID NOT forcefully try to overthrow the Ptolomaic or Achaemenid rulers of Judea but lived in relative peace & prosperity at the time for centuries. Only when the Greek Antiochus IV Epiphanes king of the Seleucid Empire limited Jewish autonomy (basically persecute Jews) did the Jews rebel & recreated a totally autonomous independent state for a few centuries until the Romans dominated & destroyed Israel.

My point is that "zionist" Jews were looking for autonomy not necessarily national statehood in the late 19th century which was utterly unthinkable at the time. I mean conquering the Ottoman Empire is utterly ridiculous just like Jews never tried to conquer the Ptolomaic or Achaemenid Empires. (Like a bunch of Cornish people taking on the British Empire)
After all Jews lived for centuries in Judea ("Israel") autonomously whilst taxed under the Greeks & Persian rulers - without any need to rebel.
Then again, some Jews are utterly stupid and when Josephus pretty much saw the plight of Jerusalem besieged by Rome sided with the more Hellenistic Jews who wanted surrender to Rome whilst losing some autonomy rather that total rebellion & destruction. The fundamentalists chose destruction ! (Well the Romans were not exactly the friendly sort)

....had things turned out differently ? Who knows.
Maybe Christianity would have never emerged, then no Islam and Jews would have either kept themselves with their traditions or completely Hellenized and become polytheist or atheists !!! In this history there would be No Christianity + No Islam, Thank God !
We can dream up conjectures...not that it helps anything today.

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12-08-2014, 07:34 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 07:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 05:00 PM)zaybu Wrote:  You're wrong. The Arabs, now known as Palestinians, were part of Jordan in those days, a country along with Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Saudi Arabia, that declared war on Israel and the Jews from those countries were dispossessed. When those Jews are compensated then we'll talk about compensating the Palestinians. As this well never happen, then I suggest you kiss goodbye to any compensation for the Palestinians.

Who said anything about compensation? Consider

And, no, Palestine was not part of Jordan in those, or any, days.

It matters not one whit to this discussion what other Arab countries did to Jews.
My point is, and has been, that the U.N. illegally dispossessed the Palestinians.

Jewish immigration was completely legal under the Ottoman Empire. There was no "Palestine State" - just a province of the Ottoman Empire. There never has been a "Palestine state" previously.
After WW1 there was a power vacuum after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire temporally under British Mandate for Trans-Jordan. (which is one entity - Includes today's Israel, Palestine + Jordan)
THEN...there was Jewish and Arab nationalism - all the UN did was say X & Y have nationalism so divide up the land between the two.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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12-08-2014, 07:47 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 07:34 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 07:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  Who said anything about compensation? Consider

And, no, Palestine was not part of Jordan in those, or any, days.

It matters not one whit to this discussion what other Arab countries did to Jews.
My point is, and has been, that the U.N. illegally dispossessed the Palestinians.

Jewish immigration was completely legal under the Ottoman Empire. There was no "Palestine State" - just a province of the Ottoman Empire. There never has been a "Palestine state" previously.
After WW1 there was a power vacuum after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire temporally under British Mandate for Trans-Jordan. (which is one entity - Includes today's Israel, Palestine + Jordan)
THEN...there was Jewish and Arab nationalism - all the UN did was say X & Y have nationalism so divide up the land between the two.

...and it does matter what other Arab countries did to the Jews because after the fall of the Ottoman Empire various newly formed Arab countries persecuted & participated in the wars against Jews - part of a settlement is compensation - some 1,000,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries and 600,000 or so Arab refugees from "Palestine" - = fair swap. (considering the disproportionate wealth involved it is hardly a fair swap considering the collective wealth of the Jewish losses from Arab countries far exceeds Palestinian Arab losses by orders of magnitude)
In any case 1/5 of Israel are Arabs who did not flee in 1948 who were given Israeli citizenship. Many of those Arabs - some 100,000 are Druze who given the choice would rather live in Israel any day than Palestine. For that matter many Arab-Israeli citizens who are Christian or more secular would rather live in Israel. (as for the religious arab-Israeli muslims, perhaps they still dream of an Islamic Caliphate one day)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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12-08-2014, 07:48 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 07:34 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 07:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  Who said anything about compensation? Consider

And, no, Palestine was not part of Jordan in those, or any, days.

It matters not one whit to this discussion what other Arab countries did to Jews.
My point is, and has been, that the U.N. illegally dispossessed the Palestinians.

Jewish immigration was completely legal under the Ottoman Empire. There was no "Palestine State" - just a province of the Ottoman Empire. There never has been a "Palestine state" previously.
After WW1 there was a power vacuum after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire temporally under British Mandate for Trans-Jordan. (which is one entity - Includes today's Israel, Palestine + Jordan)
Oh, really?

The region administered under the terms of the Mandate for Palestine. Transjordan is shown in brown.

[Image: PalestineAndTransjordan.png]

It was a British protectorate, not a country, since WWI.

Quote:THEN...there was Jewish and Arab nationalism - all the UN did was say X & Y have nationalism so divide up the land between the two.

It was illegal of them to divide up the land. Why is this concept so difficult for you?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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