Should America Support Israel?
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13-08-2014, 01:44 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 07:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 07:34 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Jewish immigration was completely legal under the Ottoman Empire. There was no "Palestine State" - just a province of the Ottoman Empire. There never has been a "Palestine state" previously.
After WW1 there was a power vacuum after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire temporally under British Mandate for Trans-Jordan. (which is one entity - Includes today's Israel, Palestine + Jordan)
Oh, really?

The region administered under the terms of the Mandate for Palestine. Transjordan is shown in brown.

[Image: PalestineAndTransjordan.png]

It was a British protectorate, not a country, since WWI.

Quote:THEN...there was Jewish and Arab nationalism - all the UN did was say X & Y have nationalism so divide up the land between the two.

It was illegal of them to divide up the land. Why is this concept so difficult for you?

The land was NOT an Arab sovereign country to "illegally divide" (as you correctly point out a British Protectorate following the vacuum left by the Ottoman Collapse) and was divided up by UN due to nationalists from Arabs & Jews living there i.e a compromise based on two nationalist groups.
So what if some of the Jews arrived more recently. After all Jews would have arrived in the earlier migrations in larger quantities had it been easier. Its not as if all the Arabs are indigenous either - considering many arrived during the time of the Ottoman Empire's rule - this is obvious from total population figures rapidly increasing in the 18th century (the land being virtually abandoned post Mamluk-Mongol wars in the medieval period).
Some Jews have always lived within the land (so called "1st migrations" from 2nd century 18th) to then many who legally brought land & were legally allowed (sometimes welcomed) by the Ottomans.

Just consider it could have been further divided if for example the Druze decided to become nationalist as wanted a "Druze state" - we would have another country controlled by the Druze - as it happens they didn't go down the nationalist path in within Israel/Palestine but tried & failed in Syria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabal_Druze_State

Quote:It was illegal of them to divide up the land. Why is this concept so difficult for you?
...because your wrong Chas, and evidence points this out not my opinion.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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13-08-2014, 03:01 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(12-08-2014 07:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  And, no, Palestine was not part of Jordan in those, or any, days.

These pictures says it was.

[Image: jordan.png]

[Image: jordan2.jpg]

Quote:My point is, and has been, that the U.N. illegally dispossessed the Palestinians.

Get your terminology straightened out: dispossession and creating a state are different concepts.

The UN created two states, it did not dispossess any individual of their properties.

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13-08-2014, 06:11 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(13-08-2014 03:01 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(12-08-2014 07:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  And, no, Palestine was not part of Jordan in those, or any, days.

These pictures says it was.

[Image: jordan.png]

No, that picture says 'Mandate for Palestine'. That's not an Arab country called Trans-Jordan which was what you claimed.

Quote:
Quote:My point is, and has been, that the U.N. illegally dispossessed the Palestinians.

Get your terminology straightened out: dispossession and creating a state are different concepts.

The UN created two states, it did not dispossess any individual of their properties.

If someone imposes a foreign government on you, you are dispossessed.

The U.N. had no authority to create any states at all.

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13-08-2014, 06:41 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(13-08-2014 06:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-08-2014 03:01 AM)zaybu Wrote:  These pictures says it was.

[Image: jordan.png]

No, that picture says 'Mandate for Palestine'. That's not an Arab country called Trans-Jordan which was what you claimed.

Quote:Get your terminology straightened out: dispossession and creating a state are different concepts.

The UN created two states, it did not dispossess any individual of their properties.

If someone imposes a foreign government on you, you are dispossessed.

No, you're not. Your possessions (house, land, etc) falls under the new jurisdiction. You're only dispossessed if the state takes away those possessions. Those Arabs who didn't flee, stayed home, and acknowledged the new state of Israel were not dispossessed. The fact is: many Mulsims did that, and their descendants, the Muslims in today's Israel, who number slightly less than one million, still owe their land as full citizens of Israel.

Quote:The U.N. had no authority to create any states at all.

Says who? Before the UN, there was the League of Nations which created half the countries in today's Europe, almost all of the countries in Asia Minor, and a good number throughout Asia.

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13-08-2014, 10:21 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Getting them to get along looks pretty difficult at this point. I don't think it's going to happen. I would like to see America give less there myself. 'sigh' You know what?! Wouldn't it be great if we could change allies when we wanted to without things being difficult though?
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13-08-2014, 05:01 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Quote:If someone imposes a foreign government on you, you are dispossessed.

Chas - that's exactly the point !!! THERE WAS NO ARAB GOVERNMENT or country CALLED PALESTINE pre-1948 ! Zaybu is right on this.

Therefore Jewish bits get a Jewish government & Arab bits get a Arab government = UN imposing a divided land for two people.

Prior to this period there was a BRITISH government and prior to this an OTTOMAN government. (....and prior to this Mamluk, Fatayid, Abbasid etc etc...)

Yes there were local Arab landlords called the Effendin which ruled over arab Fellahin Serfs - i.e Palestine's government was Ottoman with a Feudalistic system within the locality. This is NOT a country/Autonomous land or "Arab state" for arabs to be "dispossessed" from. Jews set up "Kibbutzim" and brought land and property via legal methods from the Ottoman governors.
The fact populations & migrations changed is something that occurs all over the world. Following the vacuum of the Ottoman collapse there was no government and hence a British protectorate and then two peoples competed for their nationalism's - what would become "palestinian arabs" and "palestinian Jews"
Palestinian arabs = Palestine. Palestinian Jews = Israel after the division.

Like I said it would be quite conceivable for other groups to have self identified nationalist agenda's during this period for example the Druze arabs should they have chosen this path.

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13-08-2014, 05:19 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2014 05:32 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Quote:The region administered under the terms of the Mandate for Palestine. Transjordan is shown in brown.

[Image: PalestineAndTransjordan.png]

It was a British protectorate, not a country, since WWI.

CHAS: The picture you uploaded with "transjordan" in brown is AFTER 1922. (1922 - 1947)
eg:
[Image: pal1922.gif]

Before 1922 it looks like this: (1917-1922)
[Image: map-partition-transjordan.gif]

[Image: britishmandate.gif]
http://www.contenderministries.org/artic...toryPF.php


Before 1917 looks like this:
[Image: ottoman-empire-1580.gif]

[Image: 590px-Otexpand.jpg]

[Image: Ottoman_Empire.jpg]

...there is no "Palestine country" ...and no independent "Arab country" in the area (or for that matter an autonomous Arab state or government in "palestine").

...its actually called "Syria" by the ottomans and in fact this was one of the Goals of the Syrian invasion in 1948 - it was not to create a "Palestine" but a greater Syria.
(which even to this day Assad legacy was to incorporate Lebanon into Syria prior to the civil war never really accepting the Sykes-Picot division post WW1)

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David Hume


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13-08-2014, 05:40 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Quote:
Quote:If someone imposes a foreign government on you, you are dispossessed.

No, you're not. Your possessions (house, land, etc) falls under the new jurisdiction. You're only dispossessed if the state takes away those possessions. Those Arabs who didn't flee, stayed home, and acknowledged the new state of Israel were not dispossessed. The fact is: many Mulsims did that, and their descendants, the Muslims in today's Israel, who number slightly less than one million, still own their land as full citizens of Israel.

Quite right Zaybu. Arabs who stayed still own their properties as full citizens of Israel - that's 1/5 of the entire population of Israel.
...and many of those Arabs such as Druze (~100,000) would rather live under Israeli sovereignty than any Arab state given the choice. A higher percentage of Druze arabs serve in the Israeli army (~80%) than orthodox religious jews ! (~50% exempt from IDF who opt for religious education !!!)

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David Hume


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13-08-2014, 05:46 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(13-08-2014 06:41 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(13-08-2014 06:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, that picture says 'Mandate for Palestine'. That's not an Arab country called Trans-Jordan which was what you claimed.


If someone imposes a foreign government on you, you are dispossessed.

No, you're not. Your possessions (house, land, etc) falls under the new jurisdiction. You're only dispossessed if the state takes away those possessions. Those Arabs who didn't flee, stayed home, and acknowledged the new state of Israel were not dispossessed. The fact is: many Mulsims did that, and their descendants, the Muslims in today's Israel, who number slightly less than one million, still owe their land as full citizens of Israel.

Dispossessed of their country, their right to self-determination, their right to their own nation. All of those were denied them.

Quote:
Quote:The U.N. had no authority to create any states at all.

Says who? Before the UN, there was the League of Nations which created half the countries in today's Europe, almost all of the countries in Asia Minor, and a good number throughout Asia.

Says logic and reason. The Palestinians were not members of the U.N., they had not agreed to any authority of the U.N.

It was imperialism, pure and simple.

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13-08-2014, 05:48 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(13-08-2014 05:01 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:If someone imposes a foreign government on you, you are dispossessed.

Chas - that's exactly the point !!! THERE WAS NO ARAB GOVERNMENT or country CALLED PALESTINE pre-1948 ! Zaybu is right on this.

Therefore Jewish bits get a Jewish government & Arab bits get a Arab government = UN imposing a divided land for two people.

Prior to this period there was a BRITISH government and prior to this an OTTOMAN government. (....and prior to this Mamluk, Fatayid, Abbasid etc etc...)

Yes there were local Arab landlords called the Effendin which ruled over arab Fellahin Serfs - i.e Palestine's government was Ottoman with a Feudalistic system within the locality. This is NOT a country/Autonomous land or "Arab state" for arabs to be "dispossessed" from. Jews set up "Kibbutzim" and brought land and property via legal methods from the Ottoman governors.
The fact populations & migrations changed is something that occurs all over the world. Following the vacuum of the Ottoman collapse there was no government and hence a British protectorate and then two peoples competed for their nationalism's - what would become "palestinian arabs" and "palestinian Jews"
Palestinian arabs = Palestine. Palestinian Jews = Israel after the division.

Like I said it would be quite conceivable for other groups to have self identified nationalist agenda's during this period for example the Druze arabs should they have chosen this path.

The U.N. had no authority to do any such thing. The people who inhabited Palestine had no say in it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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