Should America Support Israel?
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13-08-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(13-08-2014 05:19 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:The region administered under the terms of the Mandate for Palestine. Transjordan is shown in brown.

[Image: PalestineAndTransjordan.png]

It was a British protectorate, not a country, since WWI.

CHAS: The picture you uploaded with "transjordan" in brown is AFTER 1922. (1922 - 1947)
eg:
[Image: pal1922.gif]

Before 1922 it looks like this: (1917-1922)
[Image: map-partition-transjordan.gif]

[Image: britishmandate.gif]
http://www.contenderministries.org/artic...toryPF.php


Before 1917 looks like this:
[Image: ottoman-empire-1580.gif]

[Image: 590px-Otexpand.jpg]

[Image: Ottoman_Empire.jpg]

...there is no "Palestine country" ...and no independent "Arab country" in the area (or for that matter an autonomous Arab state or government in "palestine").

...its actually called "Syria" by the ottomans and in fact this was one of the Goals of the Syrian invasion in 1948 - it was not to create a "Palestine" but a greater Syria.
(which even to this day Assad legacy was to incorporate Lebanon into Syria prior to the civil war never really accepting the Sykes-Picot division post WW1)

You make my point for me. Thank you.

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14-08-2014, 01:47 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Quote:'Chas' :The Palestinians were not members of the U.N., they had not agreed to any authority of the U.N

Well done Chas, of course the Palestinians were not a member of the UN. Precisely my point, they previously had no self determination as a state due to being part of the Ottoman Empire and were never a country or autonomous hence not part of the UN. Israel was also not part of the UN !!!
Palestinian nationalists & Jewish nationalists both wanted a state - and the UN resolved this by creating two states.

You have the cart before the horse.

Jews accepted the UN partition even though some wanted the plan from the British Balfour declaration enforced from the 1920's onwards but circumstances made this impossible (the original UN partition was actually strategically very unfavorable to Israel splitting it into three & leaving Jerusalem as an international zone - but was accepted anyway)
Arab states didn't accept the Partition and declared war trying to destroy all Jews in the region i.e favoring only one nationalist group of Arabs.

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14-08-2014, 04:23 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 01:47 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:'Chas' :The Palestinians were not members of the U.N., they had not agreed to any authority of the U.N

Well done Chas, of course the Palestinians were not a member of the UN. Precisely my point, they previously had no self determination as a state due to being part of the Ottoman Empire and were never a country or autonomous hence not part of the UN. Israel was also not part of the UN !!!
Palestinian nationalists & Jewish nationalists both wanted a state - and the UN resolved this by creating two states.

You have the cart before the horse.

Jews accepted the UN partition even though some wanted the plan from the British Balfour declaration enforced from the 1920's onwards but circumstances made this impossible (the original UN partition was actually strategically very unfavorable to Israel splitting it into three & leaving Jerusalem as an international zone - but was accepted anyway)
Arab states didn't accept the Partition and declared war trying to destroy all Jews in the region i.e favoring only one nationalist group of Arabs.

So? The multiple Native American tribes never drew a map and set up states and boarders like Europe did. So doe that mean Europe was justified in Invading the Americas?

"Arab" soulnds like "Jew" playing favorite based on a label.

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14-08-2014, 04:35 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(13-08-2014 05:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  The U.N. had no authority to do any such thing. The people who inhabited Palestine had no say in it.

But who would you have consulted? Palestine didn't exist as a country, it had no defined border and no government. So who would have qualified as a Palestinian in 1948?

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14-08-2014, 04:39 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 01:47 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:'Chas' :The Palestinians were not members of the U.N., they had not agreed to any authority of the U.N

Well done Chas, of course the Palestinians were not a member of the UN. Precisely my point, they previously had no self determination as a state due to being part of the Ottoman Empire and were never a country or autonomous hence not part of the UN. Israel was also not part of the UN !!!
Palestinian nationalists & Jewish nationalists both wanted a state - and the UN resolved this by creating two states.

You have the cart before the horse.

Jews accepted the UN partition even though some wanted the plan from the British Balfour declaration enforced from the 1920's onwards but circumstances made this impossible (the original UN partition was actually strategically very unfavorable to Israel splitting it into three & leaving Jerusalem as an international zone - but was accepted anyway)
Arab states didn't accept the Partition and declared war trying to destroy all Jews in the region i.e favoring only one nationalist group of Arabs.

Not only do I not have the cart before the horse, there is no horse. The U.N. does not have authority over stateless people. Why do you think it does?

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14-08-2014, 04:40 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 04:35 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(13-08-2014 05:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  The U.N. had no authority to do any such thing. The people who inhabited Palestine had no say in it.

But who would you have consulted? Palestine didn't exist as a country, it had no defined border and no government. So who would have qualified as a Palestinian in 1948?

Oh, how about the people who actually lived there. Consider

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14-08-2014, 06:58 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 04:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-08-2014 04:35 AM)zaybu Wrote:  But who would you have consulted? Palestine didn't exist as a country, it had no defined border and no government. So who would have qualified as a Palestinian in 1948?

Oh, how about the people who actually lived there. Consider

You're avoiding the question: how would you determine "there"? There were no borders, so how would you determine if this village on this side of the road qualifies, but that other village on the other side of the road doesn't, etc... Without a well-defined border, you have no place to start in trying to determine who qualifies as a Palestinian and who doesn't.

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14-08-2014, 08:14 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 04:35 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(13-08-2014 05:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  The U.N. had no authority to do any such thing. The people who inhabited Palestine had no say in it.

But who would you have consulted? Palestine didn't exist as a country, it had no defined border and no government. So who would have qualified as a Palestinian in 1948?

Again so the fuck what? Maybe that is our species problem, we fucking care more about labels and borders and being the alpha male than we do about the EVOLUTIONARY FACT that our behavior is the same both good and bad.

"ARAB!" "JEW" "MUSLIM" "CHRISTIAN" ME ME ME ME ME

None of our species currently held superstitions in the form of polytheism or monotheism were around 200,000 years ago, neither was the concept of "nations".

All this crap about murdering each other is merely a fight for resources and in evolution safety in numbers gives a group more opportunity to create offspring.

FUCK RELIGION FUCK BOARDERS FUCK NATIONALISM, WE ARE NOT A SEPARATE SPECIES.

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14-08-2014, 08:33 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 06:58 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(14-08-2014 04:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  Oh, how about the people who actually lived there. Consider

You're avoiding the question: how would you determine "there"? There were no borders, so how would you determine if this village on this side of the road qualifies, but that other village on the other side of the road doesn't, etc... Without a well-defined border, you have no place to start in trying to determine who qualifies as a Palestinian and who doesn't.

The British Mandate had clearly defined borders.

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14-08-2014, 08:56 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 01:47 AM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:'Chas' :The Palestinians were not members of the U.N., they had not agreed to any authority of the U.N

Well done Chas, of course the Palestinians were not a member of the UN. Precisely my point, they previously had no self determination as a state due to being part of the Ottoman Empire and were never a country or autonomous hence not part of the UN. Israel was also not part of the UN !!!
Palestinian nationalists & Jewish nationalists both wanted a state - and the UN resolved this by creating two states.

You have the cart before the horse.

Jews accepted the UN partition even though some wanted the plan from the British Balfour declaration enforced from the 1920's onwards but circumstances made this impossible (the original UN partition was actually strategically very unfavorable to Israel splitting it into three & leaving Jerusalem as an international zone - but was accepted anyway)
Arab states didn't accept the Partition and declared war trying to destroy all Jews in the region i.e favoring only one nationalist group of Arabs.

Having your land signed away by distant authorities is called colonialism.

Do you defend it in any other instances?

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