Should America Support Israel?
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14-08-2014, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2014 09:31 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
People wouldn't defend colonialism or military occupation in any other instance. Yet, this case seems to be a big exception. I would also like to see Baruch explain why this situation in particular presents such an exception. Popcorn

Anyway, I have compiled a list of most reliable sources to demonstrate that among academia and higher circles, there is absolutely no controversy on
- the illegality of the Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem
- humanitarian crisis situation Palestinians suffer under, imposed by Israeli occupation
- the unwillingness of Israel to seek a peaceful solution to this conflict
- violations of international law by the Israeli regime

and many other things. The "controversy"is purely a construct of media and politics.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...e-conflict

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14-08-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
I think it is useful for people to be aware of why the United States has supported Israel so strongly for so long. It is so it can be used as a military asset in the region. The religious and sociocultural reasons are more relevant for the United States population support of Israel, not the governmental support. The United States government supports Israel primarily for practical reasons, not cultural or religious.
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14-08-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 09:42 AM)Michael Colton Wrote:  I think it is useful for people to be aware of why the United States has supported Israel so strongly for so long. It is so it can be used as a military asset in the region. The religious and sociocultural reasons are more relevant for the United States population support of Israel, not the governmental support. The United States government supports Israel primarily for practical reasons, not cultural or religious.

THE ISRAEL LOBBY AND U.S. FOREIGN POLICY

This is a publication of Prof. John J. Mearsheimer that includes and elaborates on what you say.

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14-08-2014, 12:33 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 08:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-08-2014 06:58 AM)zaybu Wrote:  You're avoiding the question: how would you determine "there"? There were no borders, so how would you determine if this village on this side of the road qualifies, but that other village on the other side of the road doesn't, etc... Without a well-defined border, you have no place to start in trying to determine who qualifies as a Palestinian and who doesn't.

The British Mandate had clearly defined borders.

Talking about contradicting yourself?!?? The British Mandate was given by the League of Nation, which so far you have decried it has no right to do so. So British Mandate that's okay, but UN partition, that's not okay??????????????????????

Get real. You're a waste.

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14-08-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 04:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-08-2014 04:35 AM)zaybu Wrote:  But who would you have consulted? Palestine didn't exist as a country, it had no defined border and no government. So who would have qualified as a Palestinian in 1948?

Oh, how about the people who actually lived there. Consider

OK Chas - have a referendum over the people who live there post vacuum left behind by the collapse of the Ottoman Government (under British Mandate) ?
What is the result ?

Nationalist Jews vote "Israel"

Nationalist Muslim Arabs Vote "Palestine" (tensions between these groups already exists)

Druze might vote for their own state ? (but Druze nationalism was weak at the time and quite a small group spread over what became Syria & Lebanon)

Christians Arabs may waver between the options - being a minority probably staying were they are accepting a democracy. (like Lebanon ? but they were a majority in many parts of Lebanon)

Conclusion - Its going to end up being a two state solution as per UN due to two nationalist groups.

Is there a possibility of becoming a single state something like Lebanon ? Considering the fragility of Lebanese democracy & turmoil I don't think this would have worked for a variety of reasons.

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14-08-2014, 02:31 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(14-08-2014 09:42 AM)Michael Colton Wrote:  I think it is useful for people to be aware of why the United States has supported Israel so strongly for so long. It is so it can be used as a military asset in the region. The religious and sociocultural reasons are more relevant for the United States population support of Israel, not the governmental support. The United States government supports Israel primarily for practical reasons, not cultural or religious.

Partially true.
Right wing Republicans probably support Israel for religious & cultural reasons.
(Christian solidarity with Israel, Libertarian solidarity with Israeli democracy & innovation/economic development compared to neighboring totalitarian Arab regimes ???)
US in general due to strategic practical reasons as you say pretty much like US supports Jordan & Egypt also giving billions in aid & building up their military.

Hard to say what would happen if US did not support Jordan giving Billions in aid post Oslo peace treaty with Israel (Economic & Military build up)

Jordan is a fragile monarchy and in the late 80's/early 90's was experimenting with democracy and the Muslim Brotherhood and other more fundamentalist Islamic groups were gaining power with potential to topple the Hashemite Monarchy.
This grass roots Islamism was suppressed after crackdowns and the US aid + peace accords with Israel.
I have just read "Temptations of Power: Islamists & Illiberal Democracy in a New Middle East" which sheds light on this topic.
The likelihood (conjecture) would be an Islamist Arab spring in Jordan in the 1990's which could still happen. Whilst Jordan has a more homogenous population than Iraq or Syria this could still lead to civil war such as in Libya.
So it is in US interests to give aid to Jordan and maintain the stability of the Hashemite Monarchy.

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14-08-2014, 04:31 PM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2014 04:53 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Quote:Anyway, I have compiled a list of most reliable sources to demonstrate that among academia and higher circles, there is absolutely no controversy on


Quote:- humanitarian crisis situation Palestinians suffer under, imposed by Israeli occupation
...I have explained at length that Hamas are responsible for the blockade within Gaza and perpetuate Palestinian suffering. This is hardly "no controversy" considering in the 1980's & early 1990's some 100,000 Palestinians worked within Israel without any humanitarian crisis whatsoever (& with Egypts crossing relaxed).

This ended in the late 1990's after multiple suicide bombings within heavily populated Israeli cities by Hamas & other groups from Gaza as a response to the Oslo accords. THEN there were stronger restrictions at least from the Israeli side of the border. Israel then completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005 ending any "occupation". After the Hamas coup d'etat in 2007 both Egypt & Israel imposed a blockade to control what enters Gaza - quite rational & reasonable considering Hamas removed any inspections across the borders by PA & EU leaving any trade completely under Hamas supervision. Even Egypt doesn't want this situation and the Hamas coup d'etat was condemned world wide including human rights watch.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2007/06/12/gaza-...ave-crimes
Interestingly enough Hamas was also fighting the PA from hospitals !
In addition, Fatah and Hamas forces engaged in battles in and around two Gaza Strip hospitals on Monday. After Hamas fighters killed Fatah intelligence officer Yasir Bakar, Fatah gunmen began firing mortars and rocket-propelled grenades at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, drawing Hamas fire from inside the building, killing one Hamas and one Fatah fighter. At a hospital in Beit Hanun, three family members with ties to Fatah, `Id al-Masri and his sons, Farij and Ibrahim, were killed, and others wounded. Hospital officials reported that the three were being treated for injuries sustained earlier. One was reportedly shot at close range
It is quite clear that Hamas & other extremists are responsible for the suffering of their civilian populations.

...I could continue but some of amnestyusa points really do discredit themselves such as complaining about building restrictions due to hundreds of truckloads of construction materials being restricted. Looks like all the concrete that did enter Gaza was diverted by Hamas and went to construct kilometers of terrorists tunnels into Israel !!!

Quote:- the unwillingness of Israel to seek a peaceful solution to this conflict
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 - did the Palestinians in Gaza use this for peace ???? Instead of building some Greenhouses or orange plantations Palestinians used Gaza as a launching ground for terrorism. This is hardly going to build trust for Israel to withdraw from strategic areas in the West Bank....

Quote:- violations of international law by the Israeli regime
Guerrilla warfare, Hamas deliberately using civilian areas to wage battle, civilians persuaded to defend military assets in the name of Jihad, building terror tunnels with sources hidden in public buildings, some Hamas rockets misfiring and hitting civilians, Hamas weapons hidden amongst civilians detonating etc are just a few factors that will lead to many civilian deaths. It does not mean that civilian casualties are deliberate by Israel.
Whether there is negligence in some cases needs investigating but consider conflicts can also have friendly fire & accidents.

Quote:- the illegality of the Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem
In the context of events after 1967 there was disagreement withing Israel about settlement policy, annexation, return for peace, whether the West Bank is Jordan or Palestinian etc (Jordan annexed the West Bank & did not recognize "Palestine" at the time.) [same with Gaza + Egypt]
The context at the time was different considering Israels frontiers were much weaker and conflict with major conventional Arab armies from Syria, Egypt & Jordan was a serious existential threat for destruction of Israel. Israel was willing to negotiate territory post 1967 for security but this was rejected by Arab States.

Though Jordan, between 1950 and 1967, claimed to have annexed the area that is now called the West Bank, the international community did not accept this claim as valid. Jordan never had any legal title to the area. Even Jordan later withdrew its claim after establishment of the PLO. No other political entity has had legal title or sovereignty or statehood over the area since the days of the Ottoman/British Empire. The legal claim to the area thus remains disputed. There is no sovereign authority to which Israel can return the land in 1967 without negotiated agreement.

The situation today is different, especially after the PLO & Oslo accords gave autonomy to the PA. Many in Israel are opposed to settlement building, especially leftists and it has stopped during various periods or totally reversed & dismantled such as in Gaza. However Palestinian terrorism never changed regardless if settlements are dismantled or building stopped which hardly encouraged the right wing elements within Israel to stop settlements.
The right wing still see the West bank as disputed territory, the Left wing see it as inevitably Palestinian since now there is some sort of autonomous soverign rule by the PA (or Hamas in Gaza)

As for East Jerusalem, Israel accepted an international zone in 1948 which was rejected and attacked by the Jordanian army in 1948 - completely annexing Jerusalem and destroying the Jewish quarter leading 100,000 Jews to be besieged with many killed and survivors eventually fleeing the city. Oslo accords did put East Jerusalem on the negotiating table by Barak - but Palestinians responded with terrorism.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-de...l-1.311450

As for Sinai - Israel gave it back for Peace with Egypt.
As for the Golan Heights - Assad rejected King David Peace treaty proposals unlike Sadat in Egypt.


and many other things. The "controversy"is purely a construct of media and politics.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...e-conflict
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04-09-2014, 08:56 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
We picked the worst place in the world to have a Jewish state. If I was a Jew I'd rather live in New York than Israel. Wouldn't you?
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04-09-2014, 09:01 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
We didn't pick it, they picked it, we just agreed to their location (without asking the people that inhabited that land if it was cool).

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06-09-2014, 03:34 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Everyone on all sides over there needs an ass kicking.


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