Should America Support Israel?
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02-08-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
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Israelis and palestinians killed

Daily U.S. Military Aid to Israel and the Palestinians
Fiscal Year 2013
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UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
1955 - 1992

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Current Number of Political Prisoners and Detainees

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Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
1967 - Present

Current Illegal Settlements on the Other’s Land
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02-08-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
All rights and all wrongs have long since blown away,
For causes are ashes where children lie slain.
Yet the damned IDF and the cruel PNA,
Will tomorrow go murdering again.

(With thanks and apologies to Stan Rogers)

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-08-2014, 12:58 PM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2014 01:07 PM by Youkay.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Chas, sometimes you are so dumb... We are talking about Israel, who not only occupied Palestine for 5 decades, but IS STILL OCCUPYING the damn territory. It is not "causes of the past". It is the presence!

Under international law, people under occupation have a right to defend themselves against occupiers, in this case Israel, the prime aggressor.

Israel can't even TALK about self-defence, because IN THE PRESENT as the occupying force, they are the prime aggressors.

Do some reading. It will do you good.


PS: What a dumb thing to say: Let's not look at the causes of this conflict, because children are being slain... Seriously, do some reading

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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02-08-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(02-08-2014 12:58 PM)Youkay Wrote:  Chas, sometimes you are so dumb... We are talking about Israel, who not only occupied Palestine for 5 decades, but IS STILL OCCUPYING the damn territory. It is not "causes of the past". It is the presence!

Under international law, people under occupation have a right to defend themselves against occupiers, in this case Israel, the prime aggressor.

Israel can't even TALK about self-defence, because IN THE PRESENT as the occupying force, they are the prime aggressors.

Do some reading. It will do you good.


PS: What a dumb thing to say: Let's not look at the causes of this conflict, because children are being slain... Seriously, do some reading

Yes clearly everything is Israel's fault never mind the facts or history. BTW before you attempt to paint me as some pro israeli nut job I support Palestinian statehood. Your stance is shallow and biased.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-08-2014, 01:18 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
My stance in this matter is in perfect alignment with that of the UN and other international institutions. Read the reports I posted for a start... seriously, read something! I really don't want to talk to people like you who are scared of letters!

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02-08-2014, 01:30 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(02-08-2014 01:18 PM)Youkay Wrote:  My stance in this matter is in perfect alignment with that of the UN and other international institutions. Read the reports I posted for a start... seriously, read something! I really don't want to talk to people like you who are scared of letters!

I have read, quite a lot in fact and my stance is that the Palestinians are sabotaging themselves by supporting a terrorist organization and by not turning to their legitimate government. Hamas has set the entire movement back 30+ years and has given full justification for Israeli action internationally. It has been Hamas that has violated every ceasefire so far in the conflict much to the denigration of the people they are supposed to be protecting.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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02-08-2014, 04:12 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(02-08-2014 12:58 PM)Youkay Wrote:  Chas, sometimes you are so dumb... We are talking about Israel, who not only occupied Palestine for 5 decades, but IS STILL OCCUPYING the damn territory. It is not "causes of the past". It is the presence!

Under international law, people under occupation have a right to defend themselves against occupiers, in this case Israel, the prime aggressor.

Israel can't even TALK about self-defence, because IN THE PRESENT as the occupying force, they are the prime aggressors.

Do some reading. It will do you good.


PS: What a dumb thing to say: Let's not look at the causes of this conflict, because children are being slain... Seriously, do some reading

Seriously, fuck off.

It's poetry, not a manifesto. Children on both sides are dying; they're both doing it wrong.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-08-2014, 05:11 PM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2014 05:16 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
I would agree with Revenant77

Youkay - What your missing is that all the misery in Gaza is the fault of the Hamas terrorist organization and other supporters such as Islamic Jihad.
They are funded by Qatar, Turkey, Iran with weapons & training even coming from North Korea.

Why is there an embargo/closed borders to Gaza in the first place? The Egyptian/Israeli borders were closed after the Hamas coup d’état against Fatah which rules the west bank killing some 100 Palestinians from the PA.(Palestinian Authority)
Hamas uses UN aid (and Israeli aid for that matter) to build tunnels & rockets NOT serve its own civilian populations needs.
Have you any idea the vast resources Hamas used to build the concrete reinforced tunnels running kilometres under Gaza (some 2 KM and 100 feet deep) ?
Obviously the borders to Gaza are not going to be opened allowing resources to arm terrorist militants. This isn't only from an Israeli security point of view put also Egyptian who also want to see the end of the Hamas regime and directly blame it for the misery in Gaza.

Your "statistics" quotes are also meaningless - eg comparing employment in Gaza & Israel. In the 1980's and 1990's up-to 100,000 Gaza Palestinians had employment in Israel with wages higher than many Arab countries (expt oil rich gulf states)
This flow of Gaza Palestinians into Israel vastly helped Gaza's economy and likewise many Palestinians would work in Egypt.
see http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q...7243,d.ZGU

This flow of Palestinian workers into Israel pretty much ended after multiple Hamas suicide bombings across Israel’s East coast, mainly on Buses, Shops, Cafeterias and Markets in the early/mid 1990's. Hamas is directly responsible for closing the Gaza/Israel crossing and since then there have been virtually no suicide bombings on the East coast of Israel.
Obviously Israel isn't going to just open the border - otherwise Tel Aviv will turn into Baghdad, Damascus or Kabul !!!
You cannot look at Israel's closing the border with Gaza without this background !

Likewise Egypt is against opening the Gaza border considering Hamas is an extension of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian army has cracked down heavily against them. Sisi has blown up tunnels recently going into Gaza from the Egyptian side and is supporting Israel's war - publicly stating Hamas could have prevented civilian deaths if they accepted the Egyptian cease fire (quite a bold thing to say publicly for Egypt.) In addition Saudi Arabia, Jordan and The Arab Emirates support Israel’s crackdown against Hamas - NOT because they are lovers of Israel but because they want to defeat Islamist fundamentalism and supporters of the Muslim brotherhood which threatens their "moderate" regimes.

Bottom line - Hamas is responsible for Gaza's misery, all the evidence points to this. Whilst elected they rule Gaza as a totalitarian regime, ousted the PA by force, use human shields firing rockets into Israel from Hospitals, use child soldiers, consider their own civilians as part of Jihad to protect their military assets, plunder Gaza's civilian population for resources to build kilometres of tunnels used for terrorism, Steal money given for humanitarian aid, break humanitarian ceasefires, repress any Palestinians who dare speak against the regime through torture & murder, totally control media...the list goes on.

As for the other statistics you presented such as death tolls - I have already dealt with why these are absurd comparisons and poor moral philosophy. Eg my comments on multiple more civilian Iraqi casualties in the first gulf war (could be up to 50 X more) does not make Saddam the victim. In fact in the first Gulf war the coalition forces lost virtually no civilian casualties unless you include scuds landing in Saudi, Israel and the mostly Kuwaiti civilians killed. Does this mean the Coalition were totally disproportionate because not enough civilians were killed in Kuwait ? Should we let Saddam kill a few thousand more Kuwaiti & Saudi civilians until it becomes equal figures ? You can see your logic YouKay is appalling.
As it happens Israel has taken great care to prevent civilian casualties from Hamas attacks - which without prevention would have led to thousands of Israeli civilians potentially killed. Firstly the Gaza border closing is the most obvious measure which has stopped Hamas suicide bombings in Israeli public places. The Media do not report "near misses" when bombings have been prevented. Prevention scores few media propaganda points due to no scenes of carnage.
Secondly Israel has invested heavily in building shelters for its population against rocket strikes - hence the few civilian deaths from Hamas rockets. As quoted Israel uses shelters to protect its civilians from rockets whilst Hamas uses civilians to protect its rockets in shelters.
Thirdly the Iron Dome rocket system intercepts Hamas rockets which are calculated to hit build up areas - a joint Israeli/American research and investment with much of the funding coming from the US. Talk about disproportional - a Hamas rocket costs some $1000 and Iron dome missile $50,000.
However with thousands of rockets fired at Israel from Gaza this means Hamas uses millions of dollars it could have spend on helping its civilian population.
Again - Hamas creates misery for Gaza.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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02-08-2014, 05:22 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
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UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
1955 - 1992

You missed the 1948 UN resolution recognizing Israel's right to exist which Hamas don't accept and the Hamas charter calls for the destruction of Israel and extermination of Jews.
...that an important omission.
Israel agreed to a two state solution in 1948 and was attacked by Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq. As it happens the two state solution pre1948 would have vastly favored the Palestinians giving them more territory and cutting Israel into three bottlenecks.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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02-08-2014, 05:34 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
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Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
1967 - Present

Strange - you don't include the Palestinian/Jordanian siege & destruction of the Jews in Jerusalem in 1948 with some 100,000 Jews trapped & cut off from the rest of what UN territory assigned to Israel.
Jerusalem blatantly has Jewish historical continuity and indigenous population - before Islam was even conceived of. Had various Islamic caliphates not banned & Jews from living in Jerusalem the numbers would been much higher over the centuries. (The Late Ottoman Empire somewhat relaxed Jewish restriction and oppression in the 19th century)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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