Should America Support Israel?
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02-08-2014, 05:46 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Daily U.S. Military Aid to Israel and the Palestinians
Fiscal Year 2013
[Image: aidindex.png]

If you combine the military aid for Jordan & Egypt it is higher than Israel - so your comparison graphs are out of context.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=financ...B618%3B640

Of the $407,000,000 of US aid which goes Gaza/West Bank - I would be interested how much of this is siphoned of by Hamas. Taking the US taxpayers for a ride by giving money to Hamas to build more rockets to be defended by the Iron Dome which US taxpayers mostly pay for.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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02-08-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Quote:Hamas has a similar doctrine to Al-Shabab, Taliban, Buku-Haram, ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, muslim brotherhood etc....These are some of the most horrid regimes possible.


Be that as it may, they are no where near the murdering motherfuckers that the Israelis are.

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03-08-2014, 01:23 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
You guys seem to be too dense to understand the current situation. It is an occupation, recognized by international institutions. Occupations are a violation of human rights. Yet, you guys are defending a country who has been violating human rights for almost 5 decades and committed war crimes over and over again.

I don't see any reason to argue with such brain washed pseudo-free thinkers as you.

Don't trust my words? Read these few reports submitted by international organizations. Look at the facts, for goodness sake.

Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories:

"The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory (the West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip) is in its fifth decade and the undercurrent of violence and inherent abuses of fundamental human rights and disregard for international law inherent in any long-standing military occupation is presented by both sides. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of the violence in the region."

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/count...erritories

Trigger-happy: Israel's use of excessive force in the West Bank:

"This report focuses on the use of excessive force by Israeli forces in the West Bank since the beginning of 2011. In doing so, it details cases of killings and injuries by Israeli forces of Palestinian civilians in the context of protests in the West Bank against Israel's continuing military occupation of the Palestinian territories, illegal Israeli settlements and the fence/wall, as well as Israel's treatment of Palestinian prisoners and detainees and violence against Palestinians by Israeli settlers.

Israel's policy of settling its civilians on occupied land violates the Fourth Geneva Convention and is considered a war crime according to the statute of the International Criminal Court"


http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/repor...-west-bank


UN OCHA report on the Gaza emergency

1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering.

"Of increasing concern is the high frequency of incidents where humanitarian relief personnel and objects have come under attack. Yesterday afternoon, a rescue team that arrived at a house in eastern Gaza city (Ash Shuja’iyeh) to evacuate people wounded and killed, were reportedly shelled by Israeli forces, killing an ambulance driver, a paramedic and a civil defence staff."

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_op...8_2014.pdf


Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, Richard Falk (UN Human Rights Watch)

An abiding theme of the reports of the Special Rapporteur during the past six years has been the consistent failure of Israel to comply with clear legal standards embodied in the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Fourth Geneva Convention) and elsewhere in international humanitarian law and international human rights law. This pattern, as will be detailed below, is flagrant in relation to the wall, settlements, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, water and land resources, and the human rights of Palestinians living under occupation.

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/G...penElement



Do some reading, get your facts right, then voice a sophisticated opinion.

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03-08-2014, 02:07 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(02-08-2014 08:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:Hamas has a similar doctrine to Al-Shabab, Taliban, Buku-Haram, ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, muslim brotherhood etc....These are some of the most horrid regimes possible.


Be that as it may, they are no where near the murdering motherfuckers that the Israelis are.

"no where near the murdering motherfuckers " ?

Everyday more civilians are murdered in Iraq, Syria by some of the above fundamentalism regimes than in Gaza - sometimes more than twice as many -
see
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/recent/
http://www.iamsyria.org/daily-death-count.html
None of this is reported in the media - you can go cases by case and scroll back for tens of thousands of incidents.

In just 3 years of the SYrian civil war more civilians have died than 100 years in Palestine/Israel conflict just to put some perspective - perhaps up to X 10 as many civilians.
As for Iraqi/Afghanistan the number would approach x100 by fundamentalists + US/Ally forces.
In any case as I mentioned elsewhere in the blog raw numbers of people killed doesn't tell you anything about context, intentions and cannot include attacks prevented (eg what if the IDF didn't intercept Hamas terrorists coming out of tunnels on a few occasion on the Israeli side of the border ? Each Hamas Squadron was heavily armed with intentions to cause massacre, whats if Israeli's didnt have shelters + anti missile system, what if checkpoints did not prevent numerous suicide bombings in the past etc...) These are also not speculations about prevention - just in the last few days a suicide bomber was prevented from entering Israel and he wasn't going to a firework party.

As for Hamas etc - if Israel was relaxed and allowed Hamas to get arms via the sea and open borders with free access across the Gaza/Israel+Egypt border - Israeli cities would turn into Baghdad/Kabul/Damascus style life every day i.e suicide bombings, car bombs, IED's, Grenade attacks daily !!!
The evidence is straightforward, in the 1990's multiple Hamas suicide bombings laid carnage across public places in Tel-Aviv and other cities on the Israeli coast line killing hundreds of Israeli civilians. Closing the Gaza border led to virtually no suicide bombings since.
Likewise if Israel deliberately wanted to target civilians the casualties could easily be 10x higher or more, even Egypt & UAE blamed Hamas for needlessly endangering its civilian population and putting responsibility Hamas for civilian deaths (not accepting a cease-fire proposed by Egypt) and civilians in Gaza killed due to Hamas using them as human shields, child soldiers and even killed by Hamas own ammunition.)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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03-08-2014, 02:30 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(03-08-2014 02:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Everyday more civilians are murdered in Iraq, Syria by some of the above fundamentalism regimes than in Gaza

Needing to change the topic?

(03-08-2014 02:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  As for Hamas etc - if Israel was relaxed and allowed Hamas to get arms via the sea and open borders with free access across the Gaza/Israel+Egypt border - Israeli cities would turn into Baghdad/Kabul/Damascus style life every day i.e suicide bombings, car bombs, IED's, Grenade attacks daily !!!

Apart from this being a slippery slope and a composition argument, you still don't seem to accept or even just realize the fact that Palestinians are under occupation and have been so for almost 50 years. Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

You and others seem to have a problem to understand this particular essential point, so I will repeat it for you:

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Did you finally get it? If not, then consider yourself properly brain-fucked...

Freedom and self-determination are basic human rights. According to international law, people who are stripped of these have the right to re-establish them by attacking the violators. It is time for you to realize this fact, and not to change topic every single time.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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03-08-2014, 05:37 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(03-08-2014 02:30 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 02:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Everyday more civilians are murdered in Iraq, Syria by some of the above fundamentalism regimes than in Gaza

Needing to change the topic?

(03-08-2014 02:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  As for Hamas etc - if Israel was relaxed and allowed Hamas to get arms via the sea and open borders with free access across the Gaza/Israel+Egypt border - Israeli cities would turn into Baghdad/Kabul/Damascus style life every day i.e suicide bombings, car bombs, IED's, Grenade attacks daily !!!

Apart from this being a slippery slope and a composition argument, you still don't seem to accept or even just realize the fact that Palestinians are under occupation and have been so for almost 50 years. Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

You and others seem to have a problem to understand this particular essential point, so I will repeat it for you:

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Did you finally get it? If not, then consider yourself properly brain-fucked...

Freedom and self-determination are basic human rights. According to international law, people who are stripped of these have the right to re-establish them by attacking the violators. It is time for you to realize this fact, and not to change topic every single time.

Stamping your feet and having a temper tantrum does not make your shallow one sided black and white argument any more nuanced or relevant. Oh and for the record Occupation is neither a violation of human rights nor a war crime.

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03-08-2014, 05:41 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(03-08-2014 02:30 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 02:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Everyday more civilians are murdered in Iraq, Syria by some of the above fundamentalism regimes than in Gaza

Needing to change the topic?

(03-08-2014 02:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  As for Hamas etc - if Israel was relaxed and allowed Hamas to get arms via the sea and open borders with free access across the Gaza/Israel+Egypt border - Israeli cities would turn into Baghdad/Kabul/Damascus style life every day i.e suicide bombings, car bombs, IED's, Grenade attacks daily !!!

Apart from this being a slippery slope and a composition argument, you still don't seem to accept or even just realize the fact that Palestinians are under occupation and have been so for almost 50 years. Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

You and others seem to have a problem to understand this particular essential point, so I will repeat it for you:

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Did you finally get it? If not, then consider yourself properly brain-fucked...

Freedom and self-determination are basic human rights. According to international law, people who are stripped of these have the right to re-establish them by attacking the violators. It is time for you to realize this fact, and not to change topic every single time.

You are clearly unaware that UNWRA are largely responsible for perpetuating and continuing the Palestinian refugee problem and human rights abuses.

YouKay - You should read this comparison of UNWRA and UNHCR if your really concerned about US or other tax payers wasting their money.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q...7243,d.ZGU

Yes there were Arab refugees in the 1948 Arab-Israeli war & I acknowledge that - but get your facts straight considering there were also hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees. Some Jews were indigenous, others forced to leave from Arab countries such as Iraq which participated in the 1948 war on the Palestinian-Arab side (basically a refugee swap of 3/4million arabs and Jews) and other Jews from Europe. Many Palestinian Arabs [and other Arab nationalists, especially in Iraq] supported Nazi Germany and hence are not free from blame for Europe's refugees.
(eg the Arab riots led by Haj Amin Al-Husseini)

The difference between Jewish & Arab refugees is in UNWRA's refugee policy as per the comparison chart compared to "standard" refugee policy from UNHCR. Study the comparisons carefully.
UNWRA (and supported by other Arab countries and funded by US & EU) never helped solve the Palestinian refugee problem and deliberately kept Palestinians as refugees - even after many generations instead of helping them rebuild homes and start a new life. Hence UNWRA is mainly responsible for Palestinian Misery, especially in Gaza but also Syria & Lebanon. All other refugee crisis in the world do not get "Indefinite refugee status" (as per UNHCR definition)
Palestinian Arabs are not the only displaced people in the world !

Of particular interest according to UNHCR ALL OTHER refugees across the world do not get "[b]indefinite refugee status" with no cap or time frame[/b]
If you took UNWRA's refugee definitions seriously then Jews across the world are all technically Palestinian refugees !!! Forget any literal Biblical claims, just from a secular point of view !!! The UNWRA refugee definition alone would cover all costs to Jews exiled by the Roman Invasion because it is INDEFINITE refugee status to Palestinians - in this case Palestinians being Jews considering the land was renamed by the Roman conquerors after Jews were exiled ! This has nothing to do with religion but UNWRA's interpretation. (and exile presupposes a place to be exiled from)

In contrast Jews fleeing from Arab countries, especially Iraq had property confiscated, finance stolen, persecution and no compensation whatsoever - 100,000's ending up in Israel living penniless in refugee tents not helped by UNWRA. Israel solved these refugee problems including giving Arab refugees within Israel citizenship and more rights than many other surrounding Arab countries.

On another note: Does self determination also mean the right to have a Hamas led autonomous rule which self determines a charter calling for destruction of all Israel and murder of all Jews ?

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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03-08-2014, 06:19 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Congratulations you two. You are indeed brain-fucked. The scenario is not about refugees. It is about occupation. Well, repeating the same thing several times did not help apparently to drive that msg home.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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03-08-2014, 03:00 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(03-08-2014 02:30 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
(03-08-2014 02:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  Everyday more civilians are murdered in Iraq, Syria by some of the above fundamentalism regimes than in Gaza

Needing to change the topic?

(03-08-2014 02:07 AM)Baruch Wrote:  As for Hamas etc - if Israel was relaxed and allowed Hamas to get arms via the sea and open borders with free access across the Gaza/Israel+Egypt border - Israeli cities would turn into Baghdad/Kabul/Damascus style life every day i.e suicide bombings, car bombs, IED's, Grenade attacks daily !!!

Apart from this being a slippery slope and a composition argument, you still don't seem to accept or even just realize the fact that Palestinians are under occupation and have been so for almost 50 years. Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

You and others seem to have a problem to understand this particular essential point, so I will repeat it for you:

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Occupation is a violation of human rights and a war crime.

Did you finally get it? If not, then consider yourself properly brain-fucked...

Freedom and self-determination are basic human rights. According to international law, people who are stripped of these have the right to re-establish them by attacking the violators. It is time for you to realize this fact, and not to change topic every single time.

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03-08-2014, 03:40 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
The occupied lands didn't just happen one day - they don't stand in isolation.
Israel was attacked 3 times by Arab coalitions and those lands were taken during war.

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