Should America Support Israel?
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04-08-2014, 07:25 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2014 07:30 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
You stubborn idiots... I have presented you reports by UN, amnesty, OCHA and human rights watch and am able to present many many more. These are in support of my stance, which is in fact a reflection of their content. Yet, you didn't even have a look before rejecting them.

If evidence and supporting material from highly recognized international institutions can not convince you, then nothing can change your mind. In that, you are pretty much like religiously indoctrinated retards. That is why I call the bunch of you pseudo free thinkers. You are no better than Ken Ham in this. Why should I ever take anything you say seriously?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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04-08-2014, 07:59 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
It may have been one of the recent podcasts here at TTA, but I heard an interesting perspective when trying to divulge at THIS stage the "right" or "wrong" of supporting one or the other. It went something like this...

If we could wave a wand, and demilitarize the Hamas, and give Israel the "right" to do as they see fit...Israel would most likely continue to live peacefully alongside Palestine and put their efforts into their legitimate business efforts. Swing that the other way, if we could wave a wand and demilitarize Isreal, and give the Hamas the right to do whatever they see fit, they would most likely massacre every single Israelite, man, woman and child...based on their own words....

Kind of puts a different spin on things.....

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04-08-2014, 09:26 AM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2014 09:29 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
If you gave Hamas total power they would destroy Israel and kill or exile its inhabitants, perhaps with some integration. They would probably return most or all of the refugees in surrounding countries. If you gave Israel total power they would build out the remainder of Palestine and integrate or evict the inhabitants, probably killing some who oppose it the most, and probably leaving most or all of the refugees in surrounding countries to their own devices.

The gap between these two positions isn't quite so great as the "Israel would likely to continue to live peacefully" line would suggest, but that said there is a gap. In the mean time Israel does have the power and will continue to build out Palestine in pursuit of an eventual one-state solution while periodically cracking down on those who oppose the process and while publicly claiming they are open to a two-state solution. Israel has a model for this integration process in other tracts of contested lands, notably the Golan Heights.

That's what is happening here. It is the inexorable growth of Israel and the crowding out of the Palestinian state. We are seeing the progress towards a one-state solution. That progress is slow and marked with periodic violence as the Palestinian state responds.

I've said in another thread that I don't see the kind of small separated tracts of lands currently allocated to Palestine ever really becoming a stable state. They would need to win back significant territory from Israel for a two-state solution... and even then I doubt the ability for that small parcel of contested land to support two strong and stable nation states. In a way I see what is happening as what may be necessary to establish a single coherent state that serves its Palestinian and Israeli citizens. For such a state to be sustainable it must ultimately integrate those who oppose it or find permanent homes for them in surrounding lands.

I don't think either side is right in this struggle, and the formation of Israel itself was the cause of this strife. The origins of this mess are on the heads of those who orchestrated it. If Israel is to continue down its one-state path it must also feel constant pressure from world governments and the people of those governments to restrain its violence. It is important to protest and to march and to be counted at times like this no matter how you see the conflict ultimately being resolved.

Coming back to the title of the thread, America should support Israel and also put constant pressure on her to stay her hand.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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04-08-2014, 09:28 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
baah - bungled edit.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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04-08-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
Here is an interesting point/counterpoint in this argument.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-d...ize-israel

and the rebuttal

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/07/3...ze-israel/

Honestly the more I read and learn about the entire Israel/Palestine mess the less inclined towards either side I find myself. 1 thing I do know Hamas is the worst enemy the palestinians have ever had.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-08-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
3rd UN school bombed by Israeli.

Just sayin'

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04-08-2014, 05:31 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(04-08-2014 02:33 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  3rd UN school bombed by Israeli.

Just sayin'

If terrorists are using the school as shelter then they bear responsibility for any deaths incurred.

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04-08-2014, 11:17 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(03-08-2014 06:19 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Congratulations you two. You are indeed brain-fucked. The scenario is not about refugees. It is about occupation. Well, repeating the same thing several times did not help apparently to drive that msg home.
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05-08-2014, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2014 03:22 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(04-08-2014 07:59 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  If we could wave a wand, and demilitarize the Hamas, and give Israel the "right" to do as they see fit...Israel would most likely continue to live peacefully alongside Palestine and put their efforts into their legitimate business efforts. Swing that the other way, if we could wave a wand and demilitarize Isreal, and give the Hamas the right to do whatever they see fit, they would most likely massacre every single Israelite, man, woman and child...based on their own words....

Everyone is so fond of using this argument, but every time it is put in another envelope. An extremely silly argument, for sure:

1) It is a slippery-slope argument (fallacy no1)

2) it is a black-and-white argument (fallacy no2)

3) It has no relevance to the issue at hand and completely misses the point. Because of a possible outcome that you are speculatively asserting, do you really allow or excuse the violence currently inflicted? It is morally absurd to allow an obvious violation of human rights (which is being admitted by all significant international institutions there are) based on assertions which speculate about an unlikely future.


(just to remind you of the numbers: 2.8.2014: 1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering. 5.8.2014: more than 1750 dead palestinians)




Every significant international institution agrees that Israel has been illegaly occupying palestinian land in violation of the Geneva convention and human rights for nearly 5 decades. This is the main issue. I really do not like repeating myself over and over again, but this forum boasts enough straw headed idiots to force me to do so.

I backed up this claim of mine with at least 4 reports of international institutions, while you guys are flailing around your and other people's unbased assertions. And I prefer to stick to facts, rather than assertions or speculations (which are both utterly biased and emotional on your side).

Why is it so important that we direct our focus on the occupation? (It is sad that I even have to elaborate, but you guys don't seem to understand what it truly means)

1) Occupation violates the human right of freedom and self-determination. Generations of Palestinians have been born and have perished in occupation. Their economy, trade, power and water supply and many other things are completely governed by Israel. On top of that, they are not allowed to leave their country. (they are practically living in a prison, for those who are dumb enough not to get it...)

2) Occupation is considered to be a war crime (which means Israel has been engaging in this one for the last 5 decades)

3) Occupation is the primary form of violence, which means every violence that is born as a consequence is secondary



This fact alone negates following of your oh so favorite arguments:

1) Hamas is to blame (not so, if their unjustified violence is in response to a greater primary unjustified violence)

2) Israel has a right to defend itself (Israel is the primary aggressor... I repeat this for the daft people among you)

3) both are to blame, so we should leave them to it (this is the morally most reprehensible thing to say EVER. We have a human rights violation for the last 50 years!)

and many more as silly irrelevant arguments that you keep on putting forth.



And finally there are other arguments that you guys are very fond of. These are mostly reminders of crimes and wars against Israel in the past, in which Palestinians had little or no part in. All these arguments fall short because:

1) punishing a third party for a conflict of two other parties is not acceptable and actually again a violation of human rights

2) punishing civilians by keeping them under occupation in a glorified prison is called collective punishment which is (wonder wonder) a violation of human rights

3) by referring to conflicts that occurred between other parties in the past is a diversion of the matter at hand and is completely irrelevant




Israel has a great record in violating in human rights, and this is a well documented and accepted fact. Again and again Israel has been condemned and judged for its actions. So... what does it make the bunch of you people for siding with a country that couldn't care less for human rights? Yes... yes... a bunch of assholes

PS: Having the same opinion as Res Publica on this matter should actually be sufficient cause to reconsider...

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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05-08-2014, 05:29 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
I support all of humanity and the concept of non-violence and diplomacy. I understand why Israel turns to it's leadership, I simply do not like Netenyahoo, he is too much of a hardliner like Cheney. I will however never blame an entire population of any country. I also understand why Gazans ad Palestinians turn to whom they do. Anyone living in fear our under threat or getting punched will react to that violence. I blame religious nationalism and tribalism on bhoth sides. I refuse to see my fellow human as a separate species.

If there are any Jews here please answer me this. Why is it when I argue you do want the land because of religion you claim to say "No we are secular"? I certainly think you claim equality, but think of it like this. How do you think I feel as a atheist born in the United States as the most mistrusted minority, when people say ""Christian nation". It is really setting up a social pecking order. How can you put religious wording in a country's laws and claim equality? You may not realize it, but to the people who live under that government who don't share majority status even if legal citizens you are treating like pets and house guests, that is tokenism, not equality.

Then I get when Jews who claim "race" as the reason for the land claims, how is that not putting Arabs and other non Jews in token status? I don't think religious people of any of the three understand how important it is to protect religious pluralism by demanding government not set up social pecking orders.

I am sure no sane person thinks Germans were a master race or that they were "god's chosen people" so why should Christians or Muslims or Jews think that either?

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