Should America Support Israel?
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05-08-2014, 08:29 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
many dying in israel
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05-08-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(05-08-2014 08:29 AM)Rinpoche Wrote:  many dying in israel
more than 90% of them are not Jewish
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05-08-2014, 10:50 AM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2014 10:55 AM by Wicked Clown.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(05-08-2014 03:14 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 07:59 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  If we could wave a wand, and demilitarize the Hamas, and give Israel the "right" to do as they see fit...Israel would most likely continue to live peacefully alongside Palestine and put their efforts into their legitimate business efforts. Swing that the other way, if we could wave a wand and demilitarize Isreal, and give the Hamas the right to do whatever they see fit, they would most likely massacre every single Israelite, man, woman and child...based on their own words....

Everyone is so fond of using this argument, but every time it is put in another envelope. An extremely silly argument, for sure:

1) It is a slippery-slope argument (fallacy no1)

2) it is a black-and-white argument (fallacy no2)

3) It has no relevance to the issue at hand and completely misses the point. Because of a possible outcome that you are speculatively asserting, do you really allow or excuse the violence currently inflicted? It is morally absurd to allow an obvious violation of human rights (which is being admitted by all significant international institutions there are) based on assertions which speculate about an unlikely future.


(just to remind you of the numbers: 2.8.2014: 1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering. 5.8.2014: more than 1750 dead palestinians)




Every significant international institution agrees that Israel has been illegaly occupying palestinian land in violation of the Geneva convention and human rights for nearly 5 decades. This is the main issue. I really do not like repeating myself over and over again, but this forum boasts enough straw headed idiots to force me to do so.

I backed up this claim of mine with at least 4 reports of international institutions, while you guys are flailing around your and other people's unbased assertions. And I prefer to stick to facts, rather than assertions or speculations (which are both utterly biased and emotional on your side).

Why is it so important that we direct our focus on the occupation? (It is sad that I even have to elaborate, but you guys don't seem to understand what it truly means)

1) Occupation violates the human right of freedom and self-determination. Generations of Palestinians have been born and have perished in occupation. Their economy, trade, power and water supply and many other things are completely governed by Israel. On top of that, they are not allowed to leave their country. (they are practically living in a prison, for those who are dumb enough not to get it...)

2) Occupation is considered to be a war crime (which means Israel has been engaging in this one for the last 5 decades)

3) Occupation is the primary form of violence, which means every violence that is born as a consequence is secondary



This fact alone negates following of your oh so favorite arguments:

1) Hamas is to blame (not so, if their unjustified violence is in response to a greater primary unjustified violence)

2) Israel has a right to defend itself (Israel is the primary aggressor... I repeat this for the daft people among you)

3) both are to blame, so we should leave them to it (this is the morally most reprehensible thing to say EVER. We have a human rights violation for the last 50 years!)

and many more as silly irrelevant arguments that you keep on putting forth.



And finally there are other arguments that you guys are very fond of. These are mostly reminders of crimes and wars against Israel in the past, in which Palestinians had little or no part in. All these arguments fall short because:

1) punishing a third party for a conflict of two other parties is not acceptable and actually again a violation of human rights

2) punishing civilians by keeping them under occupation in a glorified prison is called collective punishment which is (wonder wonder) a violation of human rights

3) by referring to conflicts that occurred between other parties in the past is a diversion of the matter at hand and is completely irrelevant




Israel has a great record in violating in human rights, and this is a well documented and accepted fact. Again and again Israel has been condemned and judged for its actions. So... what does it make the bunch of you people for siding with a country that couldn't care less for human rights? Yes... yes... a bunch of assholes

PS: Having the same opinion as Res Publica on this matter should actually be sufficient cause to reconsider...

[Image: 6a00d8341d4dc653ef01901cf0d9b0970b-500wi]

(04-08-2014 07:25 AM)Youkay Wrote:  You stubborn idiots... I have presented you reports by UN, amnesty, OCHA and human rights watch and am able to present many many more. These are in support of my stance, which is in fact a reflection of their content. Yet, you didn't even have a look before rejecting them.

If evidence and supporting material from highly recognized international institutions can not convince you, then nothing can change your mind. In that, you are pretty much like religiously indoctrinated retards. That is why I call the bunch of you pseudo free thinkers. You are no better than Ken Ham in this. Why should I ever take anything you say seriously?
[Image: maja1_large.jpg]

(03-08-2014 01:23 AM)Youkay Wrote:  You guys seem to be too dense to understand the current situation. It is an occupation, recognized by international institutions. Occupations are a violation of human rights. Yet, you guys are defending a country who has been violating human rights for almost 5 decades and committed war crimes over and over again.

I don't see any reason to argue with such brain washed pseudo-free thinkers as you.

Don't trust my words? Read these few reports submitted by international organizations. Look at the facts, for goodness sake.

Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories:

"The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory (the West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip) is in its fifth decade and the undercurrent of violence and inherent abuses of fundamental human rights and disregard for international law inherent in any long-standing military occupation is presented by both sides. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of the violence in the region."

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/count...erritories

Trigger-happy: Israel's use of excessive force in the West Bank:

"This report focuses on the use of excessive force by Israeli forces in the West Bank since the beginning of 2011. In doing so, it details cases of killings and injuries by Israeli forces of Palestinian civilians in the context of protests in the West Bank against Israel's continuing military occupation of the Palestinian territories, illegal Israeli settlements and the fence/wall, as well as Israel's treatment of Palestinian prisoners and detainees and violence against Palestinians by Israeli settlers.

Israel's policy of settling its civilians on occupied land violates the Fourth Geneva Convention and is considered a war crime according to the statute of the International Criminal Court"


http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/repor...-west-bank


UN OCHA report on the Gaza emergency

1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering.

"Of increasing concern is the high frequency of incidents where humanitarian relief personnel and objects have come under attack. Yesterday afternoon, a rescue team that arrived at a house in eastern Gaza city (Ash Shuja’iyeh) to evacuate people wounded and killed, were reportedly shelled by Israeli forces, killing an ambulance driver, a paramedic and a civil defence staff."

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_op...8_2014.pdf


Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, Richard Falk (UN Human Rights Watch)

An abiding theme of the reports of the Special Rapporteur during the past six years has been the consistent failure of Israel to comply with clear legal standards embodied in the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Fourth Geneva Convention) and elsewhere in international humanitarian law and international human rights law. This pattern, as will be detailed below, is flagrant in relation to the wall, settlements, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, water and land resources, and the human rights of Palestinians living under occupation.

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/G...penElement



Do some reading, get your facts right, then voice a sophisticated opinion.
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05-08-2014, 11:52 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(05-08-2014 03:14 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 07:59 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  If we could wave a wand, and demilitarize the Hamas, and give Israel the "right" to do as they see fit...Israel would most likely continue to live peacefully alongside Palestine and put their efforts into their legitimate business efforts. Swing that the other way, if we could wave a wand and demilitarize Isreal, and give the Hamas the right to do whatever they see fit, they would most likely massacre every single Israelite, man, woman and child...based on their own words....

Everyone is so fond of using this argument, but every time it is put in another envelope. An extremely silly argument, for sure:

1) It is a slippery-slope argument (fallacy no1)

2) it is a black-and-white argument (fallacy no2)

3) It has no relevance to the issue at hand and completely misses the point. Because of a possible outcome that you are speculatively asserting, do you really allow or excuse the violence currently inflicted? It is morally absurd to allow an obvious violation of human rights (which is being admitted by all significant international institutions there are) based on assertions which speculate about an unlikely future.


(just to remind you of the numbers: 2.8.2014: 1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering. 5.8.2014: more than 1750 dead palestinians)




Every significant international institution agrees that Israel has been illegaly occupying palestinian land in violation of the Geneva convention and human rights for nearly 5 decades. This is the main issue. I really do not like repeating myself over and over again, but this forum boasts enough straw headed idiots to force me to do so.

I backed up this claim of mine with at least 4 reports of international institutions, while you guys are flailing around your and other people's unbased assertions. And I prefer to stick to facts, rather than assertions or speculations (which are both utterly biased and emotional on your side).

Why is it so important that we direct our focus on the occupation? (It is sad that I even have to elaborate, but you guys don't seem to understand what it truly means)

1) Occupation violates the human right of freedom and self-determination. Generations of Palestinians have been born and have perished in occupation. Their economy, trade, power and water supply and many other things are completely governed by Israel. On top of that, they are not allowed to leave their country. (they are practically living in a prison, for those who are dumb enough not to get it...)

2) Occupation is considered to be a war crime (which means Israel has been engaging in this one for the last 5 decades)

3) Occupation is the primary form of violence, which means every violence that is born as a consequence is secondary



This fact alone negates following of your oh so favorite arguments:

1) Hamas is to blame (not so, if their unjustified violence is in response to a greater primary unjustified violence)

2) Israel has a right to defend itself (Israel is the primary aggressor... I repeat this for the daft people among you)

3) both are to blame, so we should leave them to it (this is the morally most reprehensible thing to say EVER. We have a human rights violation for the last 50 years!)

and many more as silly irrelevant arguments that you keep on putting forth.



And finally there are other arguments that you guys are very fond of. These are mostly reminders of crimes and wars against Israel in the past, in which Palestinians had little or no part in. All these arguments fall short because:

1) punishing a third party for a conflict of two other parties is not acceptable and actually again a violation of human rights

2) punishing civilians by keeping them under occupation in a glorified prison is called collective punishment which is (wonder wonder) a violation of human rights

3) by referring to conflicts that occurred between other parties in the past is a diversion of the matter at hand and is completely irrelevant




Israel has a great record in violating in human rights, and this is a well documented and accepted fact. Again and again Israel has been condemned and judged for its actions. So... what does it make the bunch of you people for siding with a country that couldn't care less for human rights? Yes... yes... a bunch of assholes

PS: Having the same opinion as Res Publica on this matter should actually be sufficient cause to reconsider...

That would presumably be the same international institutions and community that created the mess in the first place by extra-legally creating the State of Israel. Drinking Beverage

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05-08-2014, 12:14 PM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2014 02:42 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(05-08-2014 03:14 AM)Youkay Wrote:  
(04-08-2014 07:59 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  If we could wave a wand, and demilitarize the Hamas, and give Israel the "right" to do as they see fit...Israel would most likely continue to live peacefully alongside Palestine and put their efforts into their legitimate business efforts. Swing that the other way, if we could wave a wand and demilitarize Isreal, and give the Hamas the right to do whatever they see fit, they would most likely massacre every single Israelite, man, woman and child...based on their own words....

Everyone is so fond of using this argument, but every time it is put in another envelope. An extremely silly argument, for sure:

1) It is a slippery-slope argument (fallacy no1)

2) it is a black-and-white argument (fallacy no2)

3) It has no relevance to the issue at hand and completely misses the point. Because of a possible outcome that you are speculatively asserting, do you really allow or excuse the violence currently inflicted? It is morally absurd to allow an obvious violation of human rights (which is being admitted by all significant international institutions there are) based on assertions which speculate about an unlikely future.


(just to remind you of the numbers: 2.8.2014: 1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering. 5.8.2014: more than 1750 dead palestinians)




Every significant international institution agrees that Israel has been illegaly occupying palestinian land in violation of the Geneva convention and human rights for nearly 5 decades. This is the main issue. I really do not like repeating myself over and over again, but this forum boasts enough straw headed idiots to force me to do so.

I backed up this claim of mine with at least 4 reports of international institutions, while you guys are flailing around your and other people's unbased assertions. And I prefer to stick to facts, rather than assertions or speculations (which are both utterly biased and emotional on your side).

Why is it so important that we direct our focus on the occupation? (It is sad that I even have to elaborate, but you guys don't seem to understand what it truly means)

1) Occupation violates the human right of freedom and self-determination. Generations of Palestinians have been born and have perished in occupation. Their economy, trade, power and water supply and many other things are completely governed by Israel. On top of that, they are not allowed to leave their country. (they are practically living in a prison, for those who are dumb enough not to get it...)

2) Occupation is considered to be a war crime (which means Israel has been engaging in this one for the last 5 decades)

3) Occupation is the primary form of violence, which means every violence that is born as a consequence is secondary



This fact alone negates following of your oh so favorite arguments:

1) Hamas is to blame (not so, if their unjustified violence is in response to a greater primary unjustified violence)

2) Israel has a right to defend itself (Israel is the primary aggressor... I repeat this for the daft people among you)

3) both are to blame, so we should leave them to it (this is the morally most reprehensible thing to say EVER. We have a human rights violation for the last 50 years!)

and many more as silly irrelevant arguments that you keep on putting forth.



And finally there are other arguments that you guys are very fond of. These are mostly reminders of crimes and wars against Israel in the past, in which Palestinians had little or no part in. All these arguments fall short because:

1) punishing a third party for a conflict of two other parties is not acceptable and actually again a violation of human rights

2) punishing civilians by keeping them under occupation in a glorified prison is called collective punishment which is (wonder wonder) a violation of human rights

3) by referring to conflicts that occurred between other parties in the past is a diversion of the matter at hand and is completely irrelevant




Israel has a great record in violating in human rights, and this is a well documented and accepted fact. Again and again Israel has been condemned and judged for its actions. So... what does it make the bunch of you people for siding with a country that couldn't care less for human rights? Yes... yes... a bunch of assholes

PS: Having the same opinion as Res Publica on this matter should actually be sufficient cause to reconsider...

Yet again, an A for effort, F on delivery. Where did I say I support Israel? I said “I heard an interesting perspective when trying to divulge at THIS stage the "right" or "wrong" of supporting one or the other.”

Notice a couple things for those who love to flop around gesturing madly and stamping their feet because they have a emotion based perspective and narrow viewed agenda about a matter that is convoluted and has a long history of ugliness on both sides…”I heard an interesting perspective”….then….”at THIS stage”…as in after so many wrongs have been done by both sides. Who swings the bigger hammer and who is taking the beatings on a regular basis has no place in the deciding of who is the aggressor and who is the victim, nor who is right and who is wrong. Those Hamas tunnels aren't so they can carry bread and wine to their loved ones, or ferret in food and oil, no it is to conduct kidnappings and terroristic attacks. You take potshots at one side from tunnels you built into their area, expect a missile back across the wall. Perhaps you would prefer a house to house invasion of Gaza? I would draw you a picture but there isn’t a paint function in TTA.

"Every significant international institution agrees" really? Define significant international institution. Sounds like a biased, subjective and agenda-based point of view.

Let me help you understand your beloved brothers of resistance…the victims as you paint them, lets look at ideaology shall we? Or will the big words confuse you?

“Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion.”
“Article Two: The Link between Hamas and the Association of Muslim Brothers.
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine.”
Interesting…now who is this sacred brothers of Palestine? Are they handing out loaves of bread to the poor, let’s take a look at their beliefs, “The motto of the Brotherhood was traditionally, "Believers are but Brothers". That was expanded into a five-part slogan: "Allah is our objective; the Qur'an is the Constitution; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; death for the sake of Allah is our wish."

Here, let me help you, here is a link:

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thej...hocaid=397
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/384...ts-charter
Now I don’t support one or the other, but after researching their histories, I kind of lean towards Israel. Perhaps if you seek an education outside of your local town’s internet service, and attend some higher education on the subject, you may learn a few things. I come at you with that tone because of the tone you have had in this thread from the beginning. Your interpersonal skills suck, as does your knowledge of the subject. I think at this point the sand is bloody on both sides of the Gaza issue, but it annoys me that you attempt to paint the poor Hamas (terrorist organization) as victims while attacking us with your personal, emotion based agenda. Perhaps if you learned how to enter intellectual conversations with a questioning attitude and factual backup you may learn some things, and maybe even in the process teach us some things. But no, you come swinging in like a hysterical 12 yo girl calling people who most likely hold a higher level of education, and perhaps world experience than you; idiots. Again, A for effort, F for delivery. When you learn how to articulate your thoughts in a more civil manner you can re-enter the discussion. Until then, take your ass over to the kiddy table where you can pout and stamp your feet with the religious types.

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"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-08-2014, 02:34 PM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2014 04:02 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(05-08-2014 10:50 AM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 03:14 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Everyone is so fond of using this argument, but every time it is put in another envelope. An extremely silly argument, for sure:

1) It is a slippery-slope argument (fallacy no1)

2) it is a black-and-white argument (fallacy no2)

3) It has no relevance to the issue at hand and completely misses the point. Because of a possible outcome that you are speculatively asserting, do you really allow or excuse the violence currently inflicted? It is morally absurd to allow an obvious violation of human rights (which is being admitted by all significant international institutions there are) based on assertions which speculate about an unlikely future.


(just to remind you of the numbers: 2.8.2014: 1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering. 5.8.2014: more than 1750 dead palestinians)




Every significant international institution agrees that Israel has been illegaly occupying palestinian land in violation of the Geneva convention and human rights for nearly 5 decades. This is the main issue. I really do not like repeating myself over and over again, but this forum boasts enough straw headed idiots to force me to do so.

I backed up this claim of mine with at least 4 reports of international institutions, while you guys are flailing around your and other people's unbased assertions. And I prefer to stick to facts, rather than assertions or speculations (which are both utterly biased and emotional on your side).

Why is it so important that we direct our focus on the occupation? (It is sad that I even have to elaborate, but you guys don't seem to understand what it truly means)

1) Occupation violates the human right of freedom and self-determination. Generations of Palestinians have been born and have perished in occupation. Their economy, trade, power and water supply and many other things are completely governed by Israel. On top of that, they are not allowed to leave their country. (they are practically living in a prison, for those who are dumb enough not to get it...)

2) Occupation is considered to be a war crime (which means Israel has been engaging in this one for the last 5 decades)

3) Occupation is the primary form of violence, which means every violence that is born as a consequence is secondary



This fact alone negates following of your oh so favorite arguments:

1) Hamas is to blame (not so, if their unjustified violence is in response to a greater primary unjustified violence)

2) Israel has a right to defend itself (Israel is the primary aggressor... I repeat this for the daft people among you)

3) both are to blame, so we should leave them to it (this is the morally most reprehensible thing to say EVER. We have a human rights violation for the last 50 years!)

and many more as silly irrelevant arguments that you keep on putting forth.



And finally there are other arguments that you guys are very fond of. These are mostly reminders of crimes and wars against Israel in the past, in which Palestinians had little or no part in. All these arguments fall short because:

1) punishing a third party for a conflict of two other parties is not acceptable and actually again a violation of human rights

2) punishing civilians by keeping them under occupation in a glorified prison is called collective punishment which is (wonder wonder) a violation of human rights

3) by referring to conflicts that occurred between other parties in the past is a diversion of the matter at hand and is completely irrelevant




Israel has a great record in violating in human rights, and this is a well documented and accepted fact. Again and again Israel has been condemned and judged for its actions. So... what does it make the bunch of you people for siding with a country that couldn't care less for human rights? Yes... yes... a bunch of assholes

PS: Having the same opinion as Res Publica on this matter should actually be sufficient cause to reconsider...

[Image: 6a00d8341d4dc653ef01901cf0d9b0970b-500wi]

(04-08-2014 07:25 AM)Youkay Wrote:  You stubborn idiots... I have presented you reports by UN, amnesty, OCHA and human rights watch and am able to present many many more. These are in support of my stance, which is in fact a reflection of their content. Yet, you didn't even have a look before rejecting them.

If evidence and supporting material from highly recognized international institutions can not convince you, then nothing can change your mind. In that, you are pretty much like religiously indoctrinated retards. That is why I call the bunch of you pseudo free thinkers. You are no better than Ken Ham in this. Why should I ever take anything you say seriously?
[Image: maja1_large.jpg]

(03-08-2014 01:23 AM)Youkay Wrote:  You guys seem to be too dense to understand the current situation. It is an occupation, recognized by international institutions. Occupations are a violation of human rights. Yet, you guys are defending a country who has been violating human rights for almost 5 decades and committed war crimes over and over again.

I don't see any reason to argue with such brain washed pseudo-free thinkers as you.

Don't trust my words? Read these few reports submitted by international organizations. Look at the facts, for goodness sake.

Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories:

"The Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory (the West Bank including East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip) is in its fifth decade and the undercurrent of violence and inherent abuses of fundamental human rights and disregard for international law inherent in any long-standing military occupation is presented by both sides. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilians continue to bear the brunt of the violence in the region."

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/count...erritories

Trigger-happy: Israel's use of excessive force in the West Bank:

"This report focuses on the use of excessive force by Israeli forces in the West Bank since the beginning of 2011. In doing so, it details cases of killings and injuries by Israeli forces of Palestinian civilians in the context of protests in the West Bank against Israel's continuing military occupation of the Palestinian territories, illegal Israeli settlements and the fence/wall, as well as Israel's treatment of Palestinian prisoners and detainees and violence against Palestinians by Israeli settlers.

Israel's policy of settling its civilians on occupied land violates the Fourth Geneva Convention and is considered a war crime according to the statute of the International Criminal Court"


http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/repor...-west-bank


UN OCHA report on the Gaza emergency

1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering.

"Of increasing concern is the high frequency of incidents where humanitarian relief personnel and objects have come under attack. Yesterday afternoon, a rescue team that arrived at a house in eastern Gaza city (Ash Shuja’iyeh) to evacuate people wounded and killed, were reportedly shelled by Israeli forces, killing an ambulance driver, a paramedic and a civil defence staff."

http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_op...8_2014.pdf


Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, Richard Falk (UN Human Rights Watch)

An abiding theme of the reports of the Special Rapporteur during the past six years has been the consistent failure of Israel to comply with clear legal standards embodied in the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Fourth Geneva Convention) and elsewhere in international humanitarian law and international human rights law. This pattern, as will be detailed below, is flagrant in relation to the wall, settlements, East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, water and land resources, and the human rights of Palestinians living under occupation.

http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/G...penElement



Do some reading, get your facts right, then voice a sophisticated opinion.
^
This

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If that is your interpretation of "owned" than don't ever enter a debate with me, as I would show you the true definition of that word. I was wondering, are yo bi-polar perhaps? This is in no way a personal attack; one day you are seeking acceptance, the next bouncing around like a 12 yo slinging terms like "owned". Did you maybe forget the green and white pill today? check your meds. Consider

EDIT: Well it seems I may have danced into an area unintentionally, on your other thread in the casual forum you spelled out your lockdown yet again in a facility and your heavy meds precriptions.....so I guess I hit the nail on the head, perhaps the swinging back and forth bi-polar like isn't so far off the mark, and perhaps your meds aren't being regulated properly, or need an adjustment....I am no way trying to be funny or sarcastic, I am serious, perhaps they need to check your levels as you seem to bounce around a lot emotionally...not a good thing....get well.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-08-2014, 05:24 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(28-07-2014 09:03 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  Israel had been the largest annual recipient of U.S. foreign assistance. According to a November 2001 Congressional Research Service report, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, U.S. aid to Israel in the last half century has totaled a whopping $81.3 billion.
In 2008, up to 27th Dec., the home-made rockets that Hamas fired into Israel killedd no-one. In return the Israelis killed 400 children and 900 adults in Gaza.

I don't see how Israel has the right to kick the Palestinians off their farms, bulldoze their houses, kick them out of their homeland and slaughter them.It is a nation that stole its land through military force. I hear so many evangelicals and fundamentalists claiming that we have to give money to Israel because the Bible says "bless israel and you shall be blessed, curse israel and you shall be cursed". What a shitcrock!

Now the Palestinians are imprisoned in the shithole Gaza Strip and forced west as israelis keep expanding into the west bank.

Okay, so, it's true that Hamas fired rockets at Israel so that must justify an invasion and killing hundreds of innocent people. Yeah if some idiots fired rockets from Mexico into Texas that justifies invading Mexico and killing hundreds of children right?

Without America (and others) funding Israel would the nation wouldnt exist.

To answer your question before all the "biased journalism"...yes. 100%. All the time. Completely.

"People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned!" Evil_monster
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05-08-2014, 10:06 PM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2014 10:57 PM by Youkay.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(05-08-2014 11:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 03:14 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Everyone is so fond of using this argument, but every time it is put in another envelope. An extremely silly argument, for sure:

1) It is a slippery-slope argument (fallacy no1)

2) it is a black-and-white argument (fallacy no2)

3) It has no relevance to the issue at hand and completely misses the point. Because of a possible outcome that you are speculatively asserting, do you really allow or excuse the violence currently inflicted? It is morally absurd to allow an obvious violation of human rights (which is being admitted by all significant international institutions there are) based on assertions which speculate about an unlikely future.


(just to remind you of the numbers: 2.8.2014: 1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering. 5.8.2014: more than 1750 dead palestinians)




Every significant international institution agrees that Israel has been illegaly occupying palestinian land in violation of the Geneva convention and human rights for nearly 5 decades. This is the main issue. I really do not like repeating myself over and over again, but this forum boasts enough straw headed idiots to force me to do so.

I backed up this claim of mine with at least 4 reports of international institutions, while you guys are flailing around your and other people's unbased assertions. And I prefer to stick to facts, rather than assertions or speculations (which are both utterly biased and emotional on your side).

Why is it so important that we direct our focus on the occupation? (It is sad that I even have to elaborate, but you guys don't seem to understand what it truly means)

1) Occupation violates the human right of freedom and self-determination. Generations of Palestinians have been born and have perished in occupation. Their economy, trade, power and water supply and many other things are completely governed by Israel. On top of that, they are not allowed to leave their country. (they are practically living in a prison, for those who are dumb enough not to get it...)

2) Occupation is considered to be a war crime (which means Israel has been engaging in this one for the last 5 decades)

3) Occupation is the primary form of violence, which means every violence that is born as a consequence is secondary



This fact alone negates following of your oh so favorite arguments:

1) Hamas is to blame (not so, if their unjustified violence is in response to a greater primary unjustified violence)

2) Israel has a right to defend itself (Israel is the primary aggressor... I repeat this for the daft people among you)

3) both are to blame, so we should leave them to it (this is the morally most reprehensible thing to say EVER. We have a human rights violation for the last 50 years!)

and many more as silly irrelevant arguments that you keep on putting forth.



And finally there are other arguments that you guys are very fond of. These are mostly reminders of crimes and wars against Israel in the past, in which Palestinians had little or no part in. All these arguments fall short because:

1) punishing a third party for a conflict of two other parties is not acceptable and actually again a violation of human rights

2) punishing civilians by keeping them under occupation in a glorified prison is called collective punishment which is (wonder wonder) a violation of human rights

3) by referring to conflicts that occurred between other parties in the past is a diversion of the matter at hand and is completely irrelevant




Israel has a great record in violating in human rights, and this is a well documented and accepted fact. Again and again Israel has been condemned and judged for its actions. So... what does it make the bunch of you people for siding with a country that couldn't care less for human rights? Yes... yes... a bunch of assholes

PS: Having the same opinion as Res Publica on this matter should actually be sufficient cause to reconsider...

That would presumably be the same international institutions and community that created the mess in the first place by extra-legally creating the State of Israel. Drinking Beverage

At least they are honest enough to admit that the state they helped creating is now committing war crimes by contiuning their occupation for 50 years. What about you? Can you muster up as much honesty? I hope, but i think not...

And of all the sources you can doubt, you doubt Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs? I suppose when you have no arguments at all, that is what the likes of you do... Facepalm

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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05-08-2014, 10:09 PM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2014 10:23 PM by Youkay.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(05-08-2014 12:14 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 03:14 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Everyone is so fond of using this argument, but every time it is put in another envelope. An extremely silly argument, for sure:

1) It is a slippery-slope argument (fallacy no1)

2) it is a black-and-white argument (fallacy no2)

3) It has no relevance to the issue at hand and completely misses the point. Because of a possible outcome that you are speculatively asserting, do you really allow or excuse the violence currently inflicted? It is morally absurd to allow an obvious violation of human rights (which is being admitted by all significant international institutions there are) based on assertions which speculate about an unlikely future.


(just to remind you of the numbers: 2.8.2014: 1373 dead palestinians, 1.8 million without access to water or sanitation, 137 schools damaged, 250 thousand people displaced, 303,000 Children in need of psychosocial support, 9,765 Families whose homes were totally destroyed, >250,000 people require food assistance and water tankering. 5.8.2014: more than 1750 dead palestinians)




Every significant international institution agrees that Israel has been illegaly occupying palestinian land in violation of the Geneva convention and human rights for nearly 5 decades. This is the main issue. I really do not like repeating myself over and over again, but this forum boasts enough straw headed idiots to force me to do so.

I backed up this claim of mine with at least 4 reports of international institutions, while you guys are flailing around your and other people's unbased assertions. And I prefer to stick to facts, rather than assertions or speculations (which are both utterly biased and emotional on your side).

Why is it so important that we direct our focus on the occupation? (It is sad that I even have to elaborate, but you guys don't seem to understand what it truly means)

1) Occupation violates the human right of freedom and self-determination. Generations of Palestinians have been born and have perished in occupation. Their economy, trade, power and water supply and many other things are completely governed by Israel. On top of that, they are not allowed to leave their country. (they are practically living in a prison, for those who are dumb enough not to get it...)

2) Occupation is considered to be a war crime (which means Israel has been engaging in this one for the last 5 decades)

3) Occupation is the primary form of violence, which means every violence that is born as a consequence is secondary



This fact alone negates following of your oh so favorite arguments:

1) Hamas is to blame (not so, if their unjustified violence is in response to a greater primary unjustified violence)

2) Israel has a right to defend itself (Israel is the primary aggressor... I repeat this for the daft people among you)

3) both are to blame, so we should leave them to it (this is the morally most reprehensible thing to say EVER. We have a human rights violation for the last 50 years!)

and many more as silly irrelevant arguments that you keep on putting forth.



And finally there are other arguments that you guys are very fond of. These are mostly reminders of crimes and wars against Israel in the past, in which Palestinians had little or no part in. All these arguments fall short because:

1) punishing a third party for a conflict of two other parties is not acceptable and actually again a violation of human rights

2) punishing civilians by keeping them under occupation in a glorified prison is called collective punishment which is (wonder wonder) a violation of human rights

3) by referring to conflicts that occurred between other parties in the past is a diversion of the matter at hand and is completely irrelevant




Israel has a great record in violating in human rights, and this is a well documented and accepted fact. Again and again Israel has been condemned and judged for its actions. So... what does it make the bunch of you people for siding with a country that couldn't care less for human rights? Yes... yes... a bunch of assholes

PS: Having the same opinion as Res Publica on this matter should actually be sufficient cause to reconsider...

Yet again, an A for effort, F on delivery. Where did I say I support Israel? I said “I heard an interesting perspective when trying to divulge at THIS stage the "right" or "wrong" of supporting one or the other.”

Notice a couple things for those who love to flop around gesturing madly and stamping their feet because they have a emotion based perspective and narrow viewed agenda about a matter that is convoluted and has a long history of ugliness on both sides…”I heard an interesting perspective”….then….”at THIS stage”…as in after so many wrongs have been done by both sides. Who swings the bigger hammer and who is taking the beatings on a regular basis has no place in the deciding of who is the aggressor and who is the victim, nor who is right and who is wrong. Those Hamas tunnels aren't so they can carry bread and wine to their loved ones, or ferret in food and oil, no it is to conduct kidnappings and terroristic attacks. You take potshots at one side from tunnels you built into their area, expect a missile back across the wall. Perhaps you would prefer a house to house invasion of Gaza? I would draw you a picture but there isn’t a paint function in TTA.

"Every significant international institution agrees" really? Define significant international institution. Sounds like a biased, subjective and agenda-based point of view.

Let me help you understand your beloved brothers of resistance…the victims as you paint them, lets look at ideaology shall we? Or will the big words confuse you?

“Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion.”
“Article Two: The Link between Hamas and the Association of Muslim Brothers.
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine.”
Interesting…now who is this sacred brothers of Palestine? Are they handing out loaves of bread to the poor, let’s take a look at their beliefs, “The motto of the Brotherhood was traditionally, "Believers are but Brothers". That was expanded into a five-part slogan: "Allah is our objective; the Qur'an is the Constitution; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; death for the sake of Allah is our wish."

Here, let me help you, here is a link:

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thej...hocaid=397
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/384...ts-charter
Now I don’t support one or the other, but after researching their histories, I kind of lean towards Israel. Perhaps if you seek an education outside of your local town’s internet service, and attend some higher education on the subject, you may learn a few things. I come at you with that tone because of the tone you have had in this thread from the beginning. Your interpersonal skills suck, as does your knowledge of the subject. I think at this point the sand is bloody on both sides of the Gaza issue, but it annoys me that you attempt to paint the poor Hamas (terrorist organization) as victims while attacking us with your personal, emotion based agenda. Perhaps if you learned how to enter intellectual conversations with a questioning attitude and factual backup you may learn some things, and maybe even in the process teach us some things. But no, you come swinging in like a hysterical 12 yo girl calling people who most likely hold a higher level of education, and perhaps world experience than you; idiots. Again, A for effort, F for delivery. When you learn how to articulate your thoughts in a more civil manner you can re-enter the discussion. Until then, take your ass over to the kiddy table where you can pout and stamp your feet with the religious types.

[Image: 2itrgqg.jpg]

You are quoting WIKIPEDIA and JERUSALEM FUND and accuse me for being biased, when it is ME who is quoting UN, OCHA, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH and AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL. Why don't you just quote FOX NEWS too?! Do I have to say any more than that?! Seriously... you are retarded. (F, sit down)

And excuse ME if I am outraged at war crimes that have been going on for 50 years, at thousands and thousands of pointless civilian deaths and at the indifference that you people showcase so beautifully. I admit I am outraged and emotional at this point. I wished you were, too...

And get this point straight: I never agreed with Hamas and even explicitly called their deeds unjustified. All I did was saying their violence is in reponse and therefore secondary to the prime-aggressor that is Israel. At least have the brain to understand a point... And quit straw-manning! (F all over, sit down)

Quote:lets look at ideaology shall we? Or will the big words confuse you?

It is spelled IDEOLOGY... F, sit down.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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06-08-2014, 07:21 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(05-08-2014 10:06 PM)Youkay Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 11:52 AM)Chas Wrote:  That would presumably be the same international institutions and community that created the mess in the first place by extra-legally creating the State of Israel. Drinking Beverage

At least they are honest enough to admit that the state they helped creating is now committing war crimes by contiuning their occupation for 50 years. What about you? Can you muster up as much honesty? I hope, but i think not...

And of all the sources you can doubt, you doubt Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs? I suppose when you have no arguments at all, that is what the likes of you do... Facepalm

Interesting how you derive that horseshit from what I actually said. Consider

How about you try harder not to put words in people's mouths? That would be great. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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