Should America Support Israel?
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06-08-2014, 08:39 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
They are both being assholes (Israel and Hamas), but as of right now Israel has all of the power and the ability to end the needless suffering and killing of innocent civilians; and they are choosing not to.




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06-08-2014, 10:57 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2014 02:16 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(05-08-2014 10:09 PM)Youkay Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 12:14 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Yet again, an A for effort, F on delivery. Where did I say I support Israel? I said “I heard an interesting perspective when trying to divulge at THIS stage the "right" or "wrong" of supporting one or the other.”

Notice a couple things for those who love to flop around gesturing madly and stamping their feet because they have a emotion based perspective and narrow viewed agenda about a matter that is convoluted and has a long history of ugliness on both sides…”I heard an interesting perspective”….then….”at THIS stage”…as in after so many wrongs have been done by both sides. Who swings the bigger hammer and who is taking the beatings on a regular basis has no place in the deciding of who is the aggressor and who is the victim, nor who is right and who is wrong. Those Hamas tunnels aren't so they can carry bread and wine to their loved ones, or ferret in food and oil, no it is to conduct kidnappings and terroristic attacks. You take potshots at one side from tunnels you built into their area, expect a missile back across the wall. Perhaps you would prefer a house to house invasion of Gaza? I would draw you a picture but there isn’t a paint function in TTA.

"Every significant international institution agrees" really? Define significant international institution. Sounds like a biased, subjective and agenda-based point of view.

Let me help you understand your beloved brothers of resistance…the victims as you paint them, lets look at ideaology shall we? Or will the big words confuse you?

“Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion.”
“Article Two: The Link between Hamas and the Association of Muslim Brothers.
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine.”
Interesting…now who is this sacred brothers of Palestine? Are they handing out loaves of bread to the poor, let’s take a look at their beliefs, “The motto of the Brotherhood was traditionally, "Believers are but Brothers". That was expanded into a five-part slogan: "Allah is our objective; the Qur'an is the Constitution; the Prophet is our leader; jihad is our way; death for the sake of Allah is our wish."

Here, let me help you, here is a link:

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thej...hocaid=397
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/384...ts-charter
Now I don’t support one or the other, but after researching their histories, I kind of lean towards Israel. Perhaps if you seek an education outside of your local town’s internet service, and attend some higher education on the subject, you may learn a few things. I come at you with that tone because of the tone you have had in this thread from the beginning. Your interpersonal skills suck, as does your knowledge of the subject. I think at this point the sand is bloody on both sides of the Gaza issue, but it annoys me that you attempt to paint the poor Hamas (terrorist organization) as victims while attacking us with your personal, emotion based agenda. Perhaps if you learned how to enter intellectual conversations with a questioning attitude and factual backup you may learn some things, and maybe even in the process teach us some things. But no, you come swinging in like a hysterical 12 yo girl calling people who most likely hold a higher level of education, and perhaps world experience than you; idiots. Again, A for effort, F for delivery. When you learn how to articulate your thoughts in a more civil manner you can re-enter the discussion. Until then, take your ass over to the kiddy table where you can pout and stamp your feet with the religious types.

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You are quoting WIKIPEDIA and JERUSALEM FUND and accuse me for being biased, when it is ME who is quoting UN, OCHA, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH and AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL. Why don't you just quote FOX NEWS too?! Do I have to say any more than that?! Seriously... you are retarded. (F, sit down)

And excuse ME if I am outraged at war crimes that have been going on for 50 years, at thousands and thousands of pointless civilian deaths and at the indifference that you people showcase so beautifully. I admit I am outraged and emotional at this point. I wished you were, too...

And get this point straight: I never agreed with Hamas and even explicitly called their deeds unjustified. All I did was saying their violence is in reponse and therefore secondary to the prime-aggressor that is Israel. At least have the brain to understand a point... And quit straw-manning! (F all over, sit down)

Quote:lets look at ideaology shall we? Or will the big words confuse you?

It is spelled IDEOLOGY... F, sit down.

*slow clap* you got me on a typo, congrats, go put a star on your calendar..good boy.

I didn't start this thread accusing everyone in TTA for being pseudo-thinkers who don't care about the Gaza strip situation, nor do I support one side or the other. But since one side has a charter that calls for the murder of the other side, that kind of slants the perspective I think. I googled the Hamas charter because I didn't feel like getting up and going into my personal library to pull out books and type all of that shit out. The interesting thing is, rather then invalidate the information, you discredit the source. Wiki has the links that sourced the page at the bottom, feel free to click. Those were the top three google returns for Hamas Charter.

The whole freaking thing is a human tragedy, human tragedies are sadly going on in a lot of places...where is your outrage for Assyrian genocide, north Korean state sanctioned murders, Russian invasion of Georgia, millions of children dying from starvation and disease in Africa etc etc etc.

From your perspective, I guess we could say because YOU didn't start a pity thread for these atrocities, you MUST be an uncaring idiot. Get the point yet Timmy? Save your outrage, learn interpersonal skills, learn how to articulate yourself in an intellectual discussion and broach a subject in such a manner as to invite civil discourse. You are too old to present yourself in such a manner, I would think you were 14 yo from the way you stomp around and pout while crossing your arms and calling us names. Grow up.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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06-08-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
How did the Allies defeat Germany? By bombing it until the leadership surrendered unconditionally.

How did the US defeat Japan? By bombing it until the leadership surrendered unconditionally.

How will Israel defeat Hamas in Gaza? By bombing it until the leadership surrenders unconditionally.

Until Hamas surrenders unconditionally, the war will continue, and any talk of peace is futile. It's up to the Israelis to vote a leader who will have the stomach to carry out what is necessary to defeat Hamas. Bibi doesn't have the right stuff, unfortunately.

Furthermore, in the case of Israel, it's an existential situation, and Israelis shouldn't give a damn what the rest of the world thinks.

In the long term, the price will be much higher if the war, which has been going on for over 60 years, continues in a perpertuating series of truces followed by short periods of limited bombings. If the goal is to end the war the only solution is for Hamas and all Palestinian leadership to surrender unconditionally, and this can only happen if Israel has the stomach to bomb until the white flag is raised by the Palestinians.
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06-08-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?



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06-08-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(06-08-2014 08:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  They are both being assholes (Israel and Hamas), but as of right now Israel has all of the power and the ability to end the needless suffering and killing of innocent civilians; and they are choosing not to.




As far as I know Isreal soesnt jail people for having sex before marriage, or executes people for consuming alcohol, or teaches children at schools that the holocaust was caused by jews and that jews descend from monkey, Israel also holds elections and is an open and free society, I have seen several anti-government protests from Israel - how many such protests occure in Gaza?

Israel is not an asshole.

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06-08-2014, 12:32 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(06-08-2014 11:53 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 08:39 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  They are both being assholes (Israel and Hamas), but as of right now Israel has all of the power and the ability to end the needless suffering and killing of innocent civilians; and they are choosing not to.




As far as I know Isreal soesnt jail people for having sex before marriage, or executes people for consuming alcohol, or teaches children at schools that the holocaust was caused by jews and that jews descend from monkey, Israel also holds elections and is an open and free society, I have seen several anti-government protests from Israel - how many such protests occure in Gaza?

Israel is not an asshole.

Right, you keep holding to that line after they occupy the land of your forefathers for 47 years, forcing you to live what is essentially an open-air prison your entire life. Constantly pushing you closer and closer together into one of the most densely populated urban centers on the planet, to make more room for the Israeli settlers to take even more of what little land you have left. Then once you're so close together, watch in horror as they indiscriminately shell an entire neighborhood killing dozens of civilians (literally packed on top of one another because they have nowhere else to go) just to kill one or two supposed militants. Languish in fear as they bomb UN shelter, schools, and hospitals; after being told upwards of 50 times of the locations of these buildings (knowing that to hit them anyways, which with such an advanced military, is a show of their purposeful disregard for civilian lives and international law). Also watch as the rest of the international community does nothing because of Israel's influence with the United States. Watch as they prevent you from leaving the country, or engaging in commerce with the outside world. Watch Israel throw more of a shit fit over Palestinians seeking UN representation and a diplomatic solution than they do when the militant minority fires impotent unguided rockets at one of the most powerful and modern militaries in the world in a feeble attempt to do something.

What Israel is doing is the knowing, willful, purposeful killing of civilians for political reasons. In other words, TERRORISM.

Fuck anyone who is too stupid to recognise it for what it is.

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06-08-2014, 12:46 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(06-08-2014 12:32 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 11:53 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  As far as I know Isreal soesnt jail people for having sex before marriage, or executes people for consuming alcohol, or teaches children at schools that the holocaust was caused by jews and that jews descend from monkey, Israel also holds elections and is an open and free society, I have seen several anti-government protests from Israel - how many such protests occure in Gaza?

Israel is not an asshole.

Right, you keep holding to that line after they occupy the land of your forefathers for 47 years, forcing you to live what is essentially an open-air prison your entire life. Constantly pushing you closer and closer together into one of the most densely populated urban centers on the planet, to make more room for the Israeli settlers to take even more of what little land you have left. Then once you're so close together, watch in horror as they indiscriminately shell an entire neighborhood killing dozens of civilians (literally packed on top of one another because they have nowhere else to go) just to kill one or two supposed militants. Languish in fear as they bomb UN shelter, schools, and hospitals; after being told upwards of 50 times of the locations of these buildings (knowing that to hit them anyways, which with such an advanced military, is a show of their purposeful disregard for civilian lives and international law). Also watch as the rest of the international community does nothing because of Israel's influence with the United States. Watch as they prevent you from leaving the country, or engaging in commerce with the outside world. Watch Israel throw more of a shit fit over Palestinians seeking UN representation and a diplomatic solution than they do when the militant minority fires impotent unguided rockets at one of the most powerful and modern militaries in the world in a feeble attempt to do something.

What Israel is doing is the knowing, willful, purposeful killing of civilians for political reasons. In other words, TERRORISM.

Fuck anyone who is too stupid to recognise it for what it is.

You've got it all wrong. In 1948, the Palestinians had a choice to declare their own state and recognize the state of Israel. They refuse UN resolution and declared war on Israel. They have been at war ever since. What's wrong with Israel is that they are incapable of finishing the job: do like the allies did by bombing both Germany and Japan until they both surrendered unconditionally. The limited bombings followed by a truce, during which the Palestinians take the opportunity to re-arm and continue their war has to stop, and this will only happen when the Israelis bomb the Palestinians relentlessly until they wave the white flag and surrender unconditionally. Then talk of peace can actually happen.

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06-08-2014, 12:56 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(06-08-2014 12:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 12:32 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Right, you keep holding to that line after they occupy the land of your forefathers for 47 years, forcing you to live what is essentially an open-air prison your entire life. Constantly pushing you closer and closer together into one of the most densely populated urban centers on the planet, to make more room for the Israeli settlers to take even more of what little land you have left. Then once you're so close together, watch in horror as they indiscriminately shell an entire neighborhood killing dozens of civilians (literally packed on top of one another because they have nowhere else to go) just to kill one or two supposed militants. Languish in fear as they bomb UN shelter, schools, and hospitals; after being told upwards of 50 times of the locations of these buildings (knowing that to hit them anyways, which with such an advanced military, is a show of their purposeful disregard for civilian lives and international law). Also watch as the rest of the international community does nothing because of Israel's influence with the United States. Watch as they prevent you from leaving the country, or engaging in commerce with the outside world. Watch Israel throw more of a shit fit over Palestinians seeking UN representation and a diplomatic solution than they do when the militant minority fires impotent unguided rockets at one of the most powerful and modern militaries in the world in a feeble attempt to do something.

What Israel is doing is the knowing, willful, purposeful killing of civilians for political reasons. In other words, TERRORISM.

Fuck anyone who is too stupid to recognise it for what it is.

You've got it all wrong. In 1948, the Palestinians had a choice to declare their own state and recognize the state of Israel. They refuse UN resolution and declared war on Israel. They have been at war ever since. What's wrong with Israel is that they are incapable of finishing the job: do like the allies did by bombing both Germany and Japan until they both surrendered unconditionally. The limited bombings followed by a truce, during which the Palestinians take the opportunity to re-arm and continue their war has to stop, and this will only happen when the Israelis bomb the Palestinians relentlessly until they wave the white flag and surrender unconditionally. Then talk of peace can actually happen.

For fucks sake, you are advocating for the purposeful murder of innocent non-combatants, civilians, and children. Stop, think about that. I look back at the firebombing of Dresden and the Atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I despair over the loss of civilian lives. It can be argued that the Allies in WWII had far less options at their disposal in their fight against a similarly powered adversary. That is clearly not the case in Gaza now.

Hamas is NOT the Wehrmacht or the Imperial Army, this conflict is entirely one-sided. The Allies hand't occupied Germany or Japan for almost 5 decades prior (and even here, you can see how the treatment of Germany post WWI directly lead to WWII; and part of that blame lies squarely at the feet of the Allies). It is a slaughter, it is shooting fishing in a fucking barrel. It is people in tanks, jets, drones, firing missiles and artillery; with the full knowledge that they are killing civilians on purpose.

These are WAR CRIMES.

This is TERRORISM.

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06-08-2014, 01:08 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(06-08-2014 12:56 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 12:46 PM)zaybu Wrote:  You've got it all wrong. In 1948, the Palestinians had a choice to declare their own state and recognize the state of Israel. They refuse UN resolution and declared war on Israel. They have been at war ever since. What's wrong with Israel is that they are incapable of finishing the job: do like the allies did by bombing both Germany and Japan until they both surrendered unconditionally. The limited bombings followed by a truce, during which the Palestinians take the opportunity to re-arm and continue their war has to stop, and this will only happen when the Israelis bomb the Palestinians relentlessly until they wave the white flag and surrender unconditionally. Then talk of peace can actually happen.

For fucks sake, you are advocating for the purposeful murder of innocent non-combatants, civilians, and children. Stop, think about that. I look back at the firebombing of Dresden and the Atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I despair over the loss of civilian lives. It can be argued that the Allies in WWII had far less options at their disposal in their fight against a similarly powered adversary. That is clearly not the case in Gaza now.

Hamas is NOT the Wehrmacht or the Imperial Army, this conflict is entirely one-sided. The Allies hand't occupied Germany or Japan for almost 5 decades prior (and even here, you can see how the treatment of Germany post WWI directly lead to WWII; and part of that blame lies squarely at the feet of the Allies). It is a slaughter, it is shooting fishing in a fucking barrel. It is people in tanks, jets, drones, firing missiles and artillery; with the full knowledge that they are killing civilians on purpose.

These are WAR CRIMES.

This is TERRORISM.

Then tell your Palestinian friends to drop their weapons and stop fighting. War is ugly. The cost in human lives for WW2 is over 60 millions. Do you see Germany or Japan embarking in a militaristic path? No, because they learned their lesson at tremendous cost. Obviously, the Palestinians have NOT paid that huge cost, not huge enough to make them realize the folly of their decision to continue a war they have engaged for over 60 years.

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06-08-2014, 01:21 PM
RE: Should America Support Israel?
(06-08-2014 01:08 PM)zaybu Wrote:  
(06-08-2014 12:56 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  For fucks sake, you are advocating for the purposeful murder of innocent non-combatants, civilians, and children. Stop, think about that. I look back at the firebombing of Dresden and the Atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I despair over the loss of civilian lives. It can be argued that the Allies in WWII had far less options at their disposal in their fight against a similarly powered adversary. That is clearly not the case in Gaza now.

Hamas is NOT the Wehrmacht or the Imperial Army, this conflict is entirely one-sided. The Allies hand't occupied Germany or Japan for almost 5 decades prior (and even here, you can see how the treatment of Germany post WWI directly lead to WWII; and part of that blame lies squarely at the feet of the Allies). It is a slaughter, it is shooting fishing in a fucking barrel. It is people in tanks, jets, drones, firing missiles and artillery; with the full knowledge that they are killing civilians on purpose.

These are WAR CRIMES.

This is TERRORISM.

Then tell your Palestinian friends to drop their weapons and stop fighting. War is ugly. The cost in human lives for WW2 is over 60 millions. Do you see Germany or Japan embarking in a militaristic path? No, because they learned their lesson at tremendous cost. Obviously, the Palestinians have NOT paid that huge cost, not huge enough to make them realize the folly of their decision to continue a war they have engaged for over 60 years.


Germany did, after the first World War, because of how the Allies dicked them around at the Treaty of Versaille; and look at how well that worked out.

Neither of them have since, because after the disastrous end of the First World War, America and her allies wised the fuck up and helped to rebuild Germany and Japan instead of burying them and their post-war economies with war reparations.

Israel has the power, the ability, and the resources to pursue peace without slaughtering thousands of civilians by bombing the fuck out of the worlds largest open-air prison (that, incidentally, they created). But they don't want to. Right now the right-wing conservative hawks are in power and very popular. Why pursue a two state solution? Right now they have all of the power, all of the rights; and the Palestinians have jack shit. If they just maintain the status quo as they have been doing for almost 5 decades, they can just keep taking more and more land without giving anything back; and they know they'll get away with it.

Israel doesn't want peace, they are happy with the status quo; the staus quo has them in charge and with all the power.




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