Should Child Support Be Abolished?
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31-12-2013, 10:19 AM (This post was last modified: 31-12-2013 11:14 AM by Slowminded.)
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 10:00 AM)Impulse Wrote:  As the woman is the one who physically carries the baby or physically gets the abortion, yes it does give her some extra rights that the man doesn't get.

The man (unless he is completely stupid) is fully aware of this situation when he decides to have sex. So there is no excuse for his not accepting responsibility - whatever that means - after the fact.

You're right, it is simple. Don't like the situation? Don't have the sex. Very simple indeed.

Really?

Do same logic applies when it comes to women? "the situation" in question would be having to raise a child with only her income.

The woman (unless she is completely stupid) is fully aware of this situation when she decides to have sex. So there is no excuse for her not accepting responsibility - whatever that means - after the fact.

You're right, it is simple. Don't like the situation? Don't have the sex. Very simple indeed.

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31-12-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 10:19 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:00 AM)Impulse Wrote:  As the woman is the one who physically carries the baby or physically gets the abortion, yes it does give her some extra rights that the man doesn't get.

The man (unless he is completely stupid) is fully aware of this situation when he decides to have sex. So there is no excuse for his not accepting responsibility - whatever that means - after the fact.

You're right, it is simple. Don't like the situation? Don't have the sex. Very simple indeed.

Really?

Do same logic applies when it comes to women? "the situation" in question would be having to raise a child with only her income.

The woman (unless she is completely stupid) is fully aware of this situation when she decides to have sex. So there is no excuse for her's not accepting responsibility - whatever that means - after the fact.

You're right, it is simple. Don't like the situation? Don't have the sex. Very simple indeed.
Of course it's basically the same, but with one very important difference. The pregnancy is in her body. Can the man say the pregnancy is in his body? No. The circumstances aren't equal and therefore shouldn't be treated equally. Yes, the woman shouldn't have sex if she isn't willing to accept the responsibility for the consequences. But that responsibility shouldn't entail the man deserting her and shirking his responsibility. Nonetheless, if he does she not only should accept that responsibility, but she has no choice in accepting it - which is another important difference. The man can leave and dump everything on the woman, but the woman cannot do the same with the man.

This is not an equal situation for both parties and that's why there can be no double standard. The only time it's all equal is before the sex and when they both consent to the sex.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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31-12-2013, 10:30 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
What disturbs me after reading this entire thread is there is little, almost zero, discussion of the most important thing in this whole issue.

The children.

They didn't ask for any of this. Making sure that they are adequately taken care of is really the only truly important concern.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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31-12-2013, 10:36 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 10:15 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Are you people who vehemently support accidental pregnancy related child support also pro life (aka pro forced birth)? I hope so, because you make the exact same arguments.

No they are not pro life, they are just being hypocrites.

When the topic is pro choice /pro life the same people argue "pregnancy is hard, it can lead to complications, women must have the right to abort if she wants, blah, blah , blah..." Then they go to amassing lengths to prove that pregnancy is the hardest thing that woman can endure.

But the same people when it comes to child support change the tune to "abortion is hard, it can lead to complications, you can't make woman to abort, blah, blah, blah..." This time they will go to the same lengths to prove that abortion is the most dangerous and traumatic experience a woman can endure.

At the same time, while insisting that all the choices must be solely made by the woman, they also insist that the responsibilities and consequences that come out of the choices made by a woman must be shared by a man.

And they repeatedly go back to "He should've kept it in his pants" .

How about :

"If you are not prepared to raise a child on your own, you keep your legs crossed"

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31-12-2013, 10:37 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 10:30 AM)Impulse Wrote:  What disturbs me after reading this entire thread is there is little, almost zero, discussion of the most important thing in this whole issue.

The children.

They didn't ask for any of this. Making sure that they are adequately taken care of is really the only truly important concern.

That is because we have been talking about unborn fetuses for the most part. We established from the beginning that for already born children whoever is the non custodial parent should pay child support.
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31-12-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 10:36 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:15 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Are you people who vehemently support accidental pregnancy related child support also pro life (aka pro forced birth)? I hope so, because you make the exact same arguments.

No they are not pro life, they are just being hypocrites.

When the topic is pro choice /pro life the same people argue "pregnancy is hard, it can lead to complications, women must have the right to abort if she wants, blah, blah , blah..." Then they go to amassing lengths to prove that pregnancy is the hardest thing that woman can endure.

But the same people when it comes to child support change the tune to "abortion is hard, it can lead to complications, you can't make woman to abort, blah, blah, blah..." This time they will go to the same lengths to prove that abortion is the most dangerous and traumatic experience a woman can endure.

At the same time, while insisting that all the choices must be solely made by the woman, they also insist that the responsibilities and consequences that come out of the choices made by a woman must be shared by a man.

And they repeatedly go back to "He should've kept it in his pants" .

How about :

"If you are not prepared to raise a child on your own, you keep your legs crossed"

Here's the thing. Yes, I agree, men need to have more rights, but not equal rights in this situation. Why? Because they are not equal circumstances. Call me a hypocrit all you want, but until a man can get pregnant then his rights have to be a little bit less than hers because she holds more responsibility and higher consequences. Yes pregnancy and abortion are both hard on a woman's body and can be very dangerous. Do you not believe this?
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31-12-2013, 10:47 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
To the people who keep saying should child-support should be abolished that's bullshit. I'm not sure what people think is going on with the money for child support but child-support is for the child. The child suffers without it you know that right? This is not to be mean to the other parent. For 8 1/2 years my parents were married. Then my father decided to be a dick and leave my mother for younger woman. I had severe asthma and other medical conditions including a heart condition. All of my medications and surgeries and doctors appointments were very expensive. Why in the hell shouldn't he have to help my mother pay for any of my medical expenses or my schooling, which he only did sporadically, (threatened with wage garnishment and jail sentences). I was not an unexpected pregnancy. Lawrence Johnson simply got tired of the sick kid with the red hair and freckles that he didn't think was genetically his. So what even after three paternity test all of which came out positive that I was genetically his just because he didn't think so he thought he shouldn't have to pay child support for me? So because he didn't like the idea my mom should've kept her legs close? Sorry I guess my mom should've known he was a douche right?
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31-12-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 10:37 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:30 AM)Impulse Wrote:  What disturbs me after reading this entire thread is there is little, almost zero, discussion of the most important thing in this whole issue.

The children.

They didn't ask for any of this. Making sure that they are adequately taken care of is really the only truly important concern.

That is because we have been talking about unborn fetuses for the most part. We established from the beginning that for already born children whoever is the non custodial parent should pay child support.
A large part of the discussion concerns when a woman decides to have the child despite the man's wishes for her to abort it instead. The question presented was should the man pay child support.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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31-12-2013, 10:54 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 10:43 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:36 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  No they are not pro life, they are just being hypocrites.

When the topic is pro choice /pro life the same people argue "pregnancy is hard, it can lead to complications, women must have the right to abort if she wants, blah, blah , blah..." Then they go to amassing lengths to prove that pregnancy is the hardest thing that woman can endure.

But the same people when it comes to child support change the tune to "abortion is hard, it can lead to complications, you can't make woman to abort, blah, blah, blah..." This time they will go to the same lengths to prove that abortion is the most dangerous and traumatic experience a woman can endure.

At the same time, while insisting that all the choices must be solely made by the woman, they also insist that the responsibilities and consequences that come out of the choices made by a woman must be shared by a man.

And they repeatedly go back to "He should've kept it in his pants" .

How about :

"If you are not prepared to raise a child on your own, you keep your legs crossed"

Here's the thing. Yes, I agree, men need to have more rights, but not equal rights in this situation. Why? Because they are not equal circumstances. Call me a hypocrit all you want, but until a man can get pregnant then his rights have to be a little bit less than hers because she holds more responsibility and higher consequences. Yes pregnancy and abortion are both hard on a woman's body and can be very dangerous. Do you not believe this?

I do believe that, I am aware that both are hard ( but do you not believe that paying child support for 18 years is also hard ?) . I am just asking for some consistency when arguing.
I'm not asking for the same rights.
I am asking for just a tiny ( tho not as tiny as "keep it in your pants" ) bit of control for men over their lives.

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31-12-2013, 10:57 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 10:49 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 10:37 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  That is because we have been talking about unborn fetuses for the most part. We established from the beginning that for already born children whoever is the non custodial parent should pay child support.
A large part of the discussion concerns when a woman decides to have the child despite the man's wishes for her to abort it instead. The question presented was should the man pay child support.

And the answer is no. If a man decides he doesn't want the child and tells the woman when she still has time to abort, then no he should not have to pay child support. She would know exactly what she faces and be able to make an informed decision to have the baby and raise it alone with no help from him at all, have the baby and give it up for adoption, or have an abortion. The "child" would not suffer because presumably she would not choose the first option if she could not raise the baby on her own.
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