Should Child Support Be Abolished?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
01-01-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(01-01-2014 10:42 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(01-01-2014 10:17 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  The bolded part above may be the first thing in this thread from you that I've disagreed with. I don't see why casual sex should get better treatment than accidental pregnancies while in a relationship with somebody. I agree that those who are married probably shouldn't be able to take this option.

Because then the period when she can legally abort the baby has passed. She had expectations of commitment by him, and that affected her decision to keep the baby or not. He doesn't get to change his mind when it's too late for her to change hers.
She is left without the option to abort , so he is left without the option of not being financially responsible for the child.
The situation should be made as fair as possible for everybody.
Oh maybe I misunderstood you. I wasn't meaning to say when the abortion period was over. I just meant being in a relationship when the pregnancy happened shouldn't change his options IMO.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-01-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(01-01-2014 11:06 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(01-01-2014 10:42 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Because then the period when she can legally abort the baby has passed. She had expectations of commitment by him, and that affected her decision to keep the baby or not. He doesn't get to change his mind when it's too late for her to change hers.
She is left without the option to abort , so he is left without the option of not being financially responsible for the child.
The situation should be made as fair as possible for everybody.
Oh maybe I misunderstood you. I wasn't meaning to say when the abortion period was over. I just meant being in a relationship when the pregnancy happened shouldn't change his options IMO.
Agree, casual sex or a relationship doesn't change a thing.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-01-2014, 12:38 PM (This post was last modified: 01-01-2014 12:44 PM by IndianAtheist.)
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 02:49 PM)nach_in Wrote:  It's a matter of balancing reproductive right for men compared to those of women.
well that's freaking stupid.. now do men carry around a baby for 9 months ?? do men bleed our of their genitals every month ? do men breastfeed ? do men have hormonal problems and shit ?

no they don't and that's not fair either but you don't go around asking for that now do you?

I love how both men&women DO NOT want equality where it doesn't benefit them,it shows much of the self-centered gender bias.
Quote:but men don't have any similar option except for preventive measures.
I know one very effective solution for this problem DO NOT HAVE SEX!
Quote:how can we give some choice to the man about whether he wants to be a father or not
By deciding whether to have sex or not ? that's a choice.
Quote:Child support just looks like a good place to start
Child support and Abortion are two different topics.
(31-12-2013 02:41 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Try actually reading the entire thread buddy -_-
I did.. the whole topic is just spiraling around abortion which is derailing this thread.

Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-01-2014, 12:49 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(01-01-2014 07:04 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't see the mandatory issue here.

If a man doesn't want to pay child support, can't he simply do that by giving away his guardianship/parental rights?

I most cases no he cannot.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-01-2014, 01:00 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(01-01-2014 10:17 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(01-01-2014 06:46 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I am not talking about people in a relationship who brake up when she is 6 months pregnant.
I am not talking about married couple getting a divorce when child is 2 years old.

In cases like that , child support should be payed, for me there is no question about it.
The bolded part above may be the first thing in this thread from you that I've disagreed with. I don't see why casual sex should get better treatment than accidental pregnancies while in a relationship with somebody. I agree that those who are married probably shouldn't be able to take this option.

These are my criteria: a man should be able to opt out of becoming a father before 16 weeks of pregnancy (I know I changed it but after some research I have discovered that it can take a few weeks to get an appointment for abortion and I don't want her to miss her window while he is deciding) so long as:
The 2 potential parents do not already have children together.
The pregnancy is not a result of rape.

I like the children together better than married because 1) some people don't believe in marriage but could have 2 kids and have been together 15 years these women should be protected too and, 2) some people get married and agree to never have children these men should be protected too.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Losty's post
01-01-2014, 01:00 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
You managed to misunderstand everything I said, that's awesome :O

(01-01-2014 12:38 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 02:49 PM)nach_in Wrote:  It's a matter of balancing reproductive right for men compared to those of women.
well that's freaking stupid.. now do men carry around a baby for 9 months ?? do men bleed our of their genitals every month ? do men breastfeed ? do men have hormonal problems and shit ?

no they don't and that's not fair either but you don't go around asking for that now do you?

I love how both men&women DO NOT want equality where it doesn't benefit them.

I never said men should have the same rights, that would be absurd. But the fact that men don't get pregnant doesn't mean they shouldn't have any right at all about their children.

Don't say I don't want equality when it is you who resist to discuss seriously about men rights and only spout about how hard it is for women. Yeah, biology is unfair, that's why women get to decide what to do with the fetus among other things, but disregarding men as if they're just sperm dispensers is disingenuous if you want true equality (understood as balance not identity)

Quote:
Quote:but men don't have any similar option except for preventive measures.
I know one very effective solution for this problem DO NOT HAVE SEX

What did you think I meant with "preventive measures"?
By your logic we should say that women shouldn't have the right to abort, they just shouldn't have had sex


Quote:
Quote:how can we give some choice to the man about whether he wants to be a father or not
By deciding whether to have sex or not ? that's a choice.

[Image: when+I+was+ten+I+put+one+of+those+betwee...0a2e53.png]



Quote:
Quote:Child support just looks like a good place to start
Child support and Abortion are two different topics.

You don't say!! we just mention abortion as an example of women's reproductive rights, to frame the conversation for men's.

Quote:
(31-12-2013 02:41 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Try actually reading the entire thread buddy -_-
I did.. the whole topic is just spiraling around abortion which is derailing this thread.

Do have any idea of what we're talking about? Weeping

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes nach_in's post
01-01-2014, 01:05 PM (This post was last modified: 01-01-2014 01:12 PM by Losty.)
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(01-01-2014 12:38 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 02:49 PM)nach_in Wrote:  It's a matter of balancing reproductive right for men compared to those of women.
well that's freaking stupid.. now do men carry around a baby for 9 months ?? do men bleed our of their genitals every month ? do men breastfeed ? do men have hormonal problems and shit ?

no they don't and that's not fair either but you don't go around asking for that now do you?

I love how both men&women DO NOT want equality where it doesn't benefit them,it shows much of the self-centered gender bias.
Quote:but men don't have any similar option except for preventive measures.
I know one very effective solution for this problem DO NOT HAVE SEX!
Quote:how can we give some choice to the man about whether he wants to be a father or not
By deciding whether to have sex or not ? that's a choice.
Quote:Child support just looks like a good place to start
Child support and Abortion are two different topics.
(31-12-2013 02:41 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Try actually reading the entire thread buddy -_-
I did.. the whole topic is just spiraling around abortion which is derailing this thread.

Well try reading it again and actually pay attention. 1) we have already discussed that all children who are already born should be guaranteed child support from the non custodial parent
2) it is not a derailment the op is about why men have to take responsibility when women have the option of abortion.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-01-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(01-01-2014 01:00 PM)nach_in Wrote:  [Image: when+I+was+ten+I+put+one+of+those+betwee...0a2e53.png]

Well I wasn't going to say it, but since you already said it, yeah that is kind of what I was thinking...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Losty's post
01-01-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
And I was told most Indians are supposed to be good at English. The reading comprehention in this one sucks dogs balls.

Go away! Learn fucking English! You are just making a fool of youself every time you open that mouth.

I have no sympathy for people who act like they know something when they dont have the slightest clue,

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-01-2014, 08:05 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(31-12-2013 09:10 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(31-12-2013 04:38 PM)Impulse Wrote:  And to say a man should be allowed to simply walk away because the abortion decision didn't go his way is just ludicrous. That puts the man above the baby - the innocent baby for which the man is just as responsible as the woman - and that's just wrong.

Let me help keep things honest once again...
Actually, that wasn't honest at all. The thread title is "Should Child Support Be Abolished?" And, if you read the OP, it does discuss abortion as an option for the woman while it gets around to the real point which is about how the man is stuck paying child support if the woman doesn't have an abortion against his wishes. What's the point of discussing child support and the man's responsibility to it if the fetus is aborted and there is no child? Consider

(31-12-2013 09:10 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  And to say a woman should be allowed to simply abort the baby because *insert whatever reason except medical reasons* is just ludicrous. That puts the woman above the baby. The innocent baby...
What baby? If it's aborted, there is no baby. Your argument fails miserably on that account. Furthermore, "except medical reasons"... why? It's a real part of the picture. You don't get to cherry pick only the things that fit your position.

(31-12-2013 09:10 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  You insist on having double standards. Unless you are pro life? Every point you make for child support is also a point for pro life option.
As I stated previously, there can be no double standards here. By definition the situations must be comparable on both sides of the double standard. But they aren't. The woman physically carries the baby; the man does not. The woman has no choice but to deal with the fetus or baby once she is pregnant; the man does not. The man can completely walk away from the whole scene after the sex even if the woman is pregnant; the woman cannot. If the decision is to have an abortion, it is the woman who takes the medical risks; the man does not.

And no, I'm certainly NOT pro life and will never understand that position. I am solidly pro choice. None of my arguments support the pro life position. I am simply discussing the situation concerning when the child is born because that's the topic (child support).

(31-12-2013 09:10 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  When the issue is child support then it's " innocent baby" , but when the issue is abortion then it's "her body, her life, her choice" then you forget about the "innocent baby".

If a woman is allowed to have an abortion, thus putting herself above the "innocent baby" , then a man should be allowed to walk away putting himself above the baby. No?
I already addressed this above. The topic is about child support and, with abortion, there is no child or "innocent baby".

(31-12-2013 09:10 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Also, take in consideration that an abortion means that the "innocent baby" simply doesn't get to be , but when man walks away, the child, depending on his mother's ability to provide or find another life partner can have a normal happy life, perhaps much better then if father didn't walk away.
Hmm, so you DO understand that abortion means no baby or child. So you used your argument above to support your position even though the non-existent child negates it, but now you want to use the other side of the coin for a different argument. You can't have it both ways. Ideally, the man would want the child and stay with the woman and child. But, since we're talking about the man walking away, his absence is a given. The only question is will he be allowed to walk away free of financial obligation or will the child benefit from his financial obligation being required? I don't see how the child can be better off with less money, do you?

(31-12-2013 09:10 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  You seem to assume that is impossible for a woman to provide only for herself and a child, when there are millions upon millions of cases where a man is the sole provider for himself, his wife and a child/children?
No, it's not a matter of whether the woman can raise the child herself without difficulty. It's about the right thing to do in the man's case. The right thing is to stay with the woman and child and raise the child jointly. But if the scumbag can't even do that much, he can at least share the financial burden.

Really, I'm about done with this discussion. It's just going in circles at this point. To me, it's crystal clear that the man should be required to pay child support at the very least. He knew the risks when he had sex, the same as the woman did. The main difference is, if she gets pregnant, he can walk away and she can't, but that doesn't make it the right thing for him to do just because it's convenient. He doesn't get to desert the woman and he doesn't get to desert the child. But it appears that I'm not going to convince you so I don't see the point in continuing the circles.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Impulse's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: