Should Child Support Be Abolished?
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02-01-2014, 10:09 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 10:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 02:16 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Looks to me like, "The moment that accident happened, he lost control of his own life, and potentially his own happiness.

Damn right. Both the parents did.

Now the CHILD has the rights. You made it, it's half yours. You are responsible for the life of a human being.

I absolutely HATE when parents bicker around at the expense of a human being THEY CREATED.

You knew babies result from sex. Deal with it. Sex is not an accident, it's a decision. Stop thinking with your penis or vagina, you are better than that. And if you are not, if you can't deal with your own impulses, then bear the freaking consequences and provide the child YOU put on this earth with a decent start in life.

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02-01-2014, 10:25 AM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2014 10:28 AM by Skeptic Gamer.)
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(29-12-2013 06:23 PM)Bocaj910 Wrote:  Mandatory child support is unfair to men. Men only have one opportunity to get rid of the child --- the initial procreation. Women have a plethora of opportunities in comparison: contraception, morning-after pill, abortion, and then adoption. If the woman can't afford or didn't want the child, she should of taken advantage of these options. Of course, if the child is in poverty we should assist them, but they shouldn't be the responsibility of the father if he didn't want the child in the first place.

Having come out of the COMPLETELY DISASTROUS child support system myself, I am mixed about removing it entirely, but very sternly feel that it needs to be completely destroyed and rebuilt from scratch. It is extremely unfair to men, destructive to families, and ignores the actual needs of the child in favor of merely shuffling money around.

When it was ordered for me, I ended up handing over literally 45% of my income to child support. I started by paying about $575 when my actual income at the time was $1200. As you can imagine, this completely destroyed my life, ruined my credit, and forced me to struggle for years. At the same time, my son's mother used him as a weapon against me and I felt I had no rights at all this entire time.

If you've ever seen stories about fathers kidnapping their own kids--its this kind of completely shitty system that leads many down that path, and indeed, those thoughts swirled in my head constantly.

Whenever I see someone say "you should've just kept it in your pants," I see the same kind of deliberate ignorance and inhumanity that comes with "well, she shouldn't have dressed like that if she didn't want to be raped." That is deliberately marginalizing another human being because you have chosen not to fucking care. No one deserves to be raped, and no one deserves to have their life ruined (by forceful government interference) for creating a child.

The man and woman SHARE responsibility for a child being born--but with the child support system as it is currently designed, the responsibility is placed entirely on the man, as if he spawned the child himself and forced it on a woman.

My situation did not improve until fairly recently--the past ~3 years or so. My son's mother and I finally started talking, started getting along, and came to agreements. The Child Support order is nullified and we share responsibility of his needs as equally as we can. Unfortunately, he does not live with me, but if she's going to choose the school, she will pay the bills pertaining to it. When he did live with me for a year, I paid for his chess club and asked for nothing from her for it.

Also, it isn't just me--she also found the system utterly unhelpful in the end, and extremely difficult to work with. Frankly, if a child is born outside of marriage, if the father wants to be involved and has even signed the birth certificate (I both signed the certificate and named him, and he carries my last name), then joint custody should be the automatic assumption, not the one-sided, anti-family, sexist shitstorm that currently defines the family court system and child support.

Whoever came up with the child support system as it has long become deserves to have their heart torn from their chest and stomped on in the streets. Because that is what they have done to so many families.

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02-01-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 10:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 02:16 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Looks to me like, "The moment that accident happened, he lost control of his own life, and potentially his own happiness.

Damn right. Both the parents did.

Now the CHILD has the rights. You made it, it's half yours. You are responsible for the life of a human being.

I absolutely HATE when parents bicker around at the expense of a human being THEY CREATED.

You knew babies result from sex. Deal with it. Sex is not an accident, it's a decision. Stop thinking with your penis or vagina, you are better than that. And if you are not, if you can't deal with your own impulses, then bear the freaking consequences and provide the child YOU put on this earth with a decent start in life.
Alright, that's fine. I just hope you are not being hypocritical and that you apply that exact same logic to abortion. Have your point of view, but be consistent Thumbsup (I'm not saying you are inconsistent, I have no idea what your views on abortion are)

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02-01-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 10:25 AM)Skeptic Gamer Wrote:  
(29-12-2013 06:23 PM)Bocaj910 Wrote:  Mandatory child support is unfair to men. Men only have one opportunity to get rid of the child --- the initial procreation. Women have a plethora of opportunities in comparison: contraception, morning-after pill, abortion, and then adoption. If the woman can't afford or didn't want the child, she should of taken advantage of these options. Of course, if the child is in poverty we should assist them, but they shouldn't be the responsibility of the father if he didn't want the child in the first place.

Having come out of the COMPLETELY DISASTROUS child support system myself, I am mixed about removing it entirely, but very sternly feel that it needs to be completely destroyed and rebuilt from scratch. It is extremely unfair to men, destructive to families, and ignores the actual needs of the child in favor of merely shuffling money around.

When it was ordered for me, I ended up handing over literally 45% of my income to child support. I started by paying about $575 when my actual income at the time was $1200. As you can imagine, this completely destroyed my life, ruined my credit, and forced me to struggle for years. At the same time, my son's mother used him as a weapon against me and I felt I had no rights at all this entire time.

If you've ever seen stories about fathers kidnapping their own kids--its this kind of completely shitty system that leads many down that path, and indeed, those thoughts swirled in my head constantly.

Whenever I see someone say "you should've just kept it in your pants," I see the same kind of deliberate ignorance and inhumanity that comes with "well, she shouldn't have dressed like that if she didn't want to be raped." That is deliberately marginalizing another human being because you have chosen not to fucking care. No one deserves to be raped, and no one deserves to have their life ruined (by forceful government interference) for creating a child.

The man and woman SHARE responsibility for a child being born--but with the child support system as it is currently designed, the responsibility is placed entirely on the man, as if he spawned the child himself and forced it on a woman.

My situation did not improve until fairly recently--the past ~3 years or so. My son's mother and I finally started talking, started getting along, and came to agreements. The Child Support order is nullified and we share responsibility of his needs as equally as we can. Unfortunately, he does not live with me, but if she's going to choose the school, she will pay the bills pertaining to it. When he did live with me for a year, I paid for his chess club and asked for nothing from her for it.

Also, it isn't just me--she also found the system utterly unhelpful in the end, and extremely difficult to work with. Frankly, if a child is born outside of marriage, if the father wants to be involved and has even signed the birth certificate (I both signed the certificate and named him, and he carries my last name), then joint custody should be the automatic assumption, not the one-sided, anti-family, sexist shitstorm that currently defines the family court system and child support.

Whoever came up with the child support system as it has long become deserves to have their heart torn from their chest and stomped on in the streets. Because that is what they have done to so many families.

Why on earth were you paying so much for one child?? My ex-husband pays less than that for 2 children and his income is higher and my income is zero.
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02-01-2014, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2014 10:46 AM by Dom.)
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 10:31 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 10:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  Damn right. Both the parents did.

Now the CHILD has the rights. You made it, it's half yours. You are responsible for the life of a human being.

I absolutely HATE when parents bicker around at the expense of a human being THEY CREATED.

You knew babies result from sex. Deal with it. Sex is not an accident, it's a decision. Stop thinking with your penis or vagina, you are better than that. And if you are not, if you can't deal with your own impulses, then bear the freaking consequences and provide the child YOU put on this earth with a decent start in life.
Alright, that's fine. I just hope you are not being hypocritical and that you apply that exact same logic to abortion. Have your point of view, but be consistent Thumbsup (I'm not saying you are inconsistent, I have no idea what your views on abortion are)

The minute a baby is growing, you are parents. You are responsible for what happens to a life. The smart thing is to settle this in advance. If you are not smart enough and can't think with your head before involving other body parts, you need to negotiate until you arrive at a common decision after the fact. Stupid, but happens all the time.

You have 5 choices: Abortion, woman raises and man pays, man raises and woman pays, they share the raising and the cost, or adoption.

If both are too self involved to be able to make a common decision, the law will have to step in on behalf of THE CHILD. It's not about the parents anymore. That train has left the station. It's now about a child they created. The child needs a decent future.

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02-01-2014, 12:51 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 09:16 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Sometimes that's appropriate. Is it overbearing to say murder is wrong for everyone? Consider
I think there is a big difference between intently causing harm, and things not being ideal because you are choosing not to participate. And honestly I find it immoral (by my moral standards) for a woman to choose to have a baby that the man does not want (the choice is not immoral), and then force her decision to alter the rest of his life by making him pay child support. It's financial slavery because of her choice, and I consider that harm caused with intent.

Quote:You're missing the point. Staying with the woman and child and beating up the woman and/or child is not the right thing either. Obviously, I meant doing the entire right thing. Yes, if the man is going to be abusive, the child (and woman) are better off if he leaves, but that doesn't mean he did the right thing by leaving. It means it was the lesser of the evils and he's still a scumbag. The right thing was to accept the situation, treat the woman and child respectfully as human beings, and support them both.
My idea of the "right thing" is to think about the rights of the two living human beings before the child is born.
Living human being 1: the woman
Living human being 2: the man

The woman has the right to have the child, if that is what she wishes. However, she should ask the man, "what part do you want in this child's life?"

The man should have the right to be a father, if she chooses to have a child, that is to have certain parental/custodial rights.

Or the man should have the right to say, "I don't want any part of in this childs life, but I will send you money if you need it, because that is what I feel is right."

I argue that the man should also have the right to say, "I don't want any part in this child's life. This is your decision, not mine, to have and raise this child, and if you are making that decision you will need to take responsibility for it and raise it with your own resources."

The two living human beings should both have options for how they want to proceed with their lives. But your argument is that only the woman holds the options for how both of their lives turn out. The woman gets to make the decision for this man's life. That is entirely unequal.

Quote:Scumbag because he can't take responsibility for his actions and dumps the consequences on the woman and child.
She made the decision to have the baby, not him. Why is her decision his responsibility? He has responsibility for the pregnancy, I agree. But the pregnancy and the birth are separate events. I don't agree he has responsibility for the birth as that was not a decision he had any part in marking. He can take responsibility for the pregnancy by offering to pay or co-pay medical bills for whatever procedure she does to deal with the pregnancy.

Quote:This I agree with. Thumbsup
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Quote:Those are manners of dealing with the pregnancy and not walking away because, as I stated, she can't walk away.
Well of course, you can't physically walk away from any physical sickness or ailment or parasite once it is contracted. But you can choose how to deal with it. How I choose to deal with my parasite should not become a life altering expense on the person who accidentally passed it on to me. Not if I have the option of dealing with it in a way that has little to no impact on that person at all.

Quote:He should have considered that when he took the risk of getting the woman pregnant and, if he did consider it, he should have taken it very seriously - meaning having a willingness to accept the consequences even if it meant raising a child that he really wasn't hoping for; or else not having the sex.
Switch the male role and the female role and that is a pro-life (aka pro forced-birth) argument, almost verbatim. Which if you are pro-life, that is fine. I understand why some take that position. I do not take that position. I don't think an accident with preventable consequences should have the effect of potentially ruining somebody's life against their will.

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02-01-2014, 01:06 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 10:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 10:31 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Alright, that's fine. I just hope you are not being hypocritical and that you apply that exact same logic to abortion. Have your point of view, but be consistent Thumbsup (I'm not saying you are inconsistent, I have no idea what your views on abortion are)

The minute a baby is growing, you are parents. You are responsible for what happens to a life. The smart thing is to settle this in advance. If you are not smart enough and can't think with your head before involving other body parts, you need to negotiate until you arrive at a common decision after the fact. Stupid, but happens all the time.

You have 5 choices: Abortion, woman raises and man pays, man raises and woman pays, they share the raising and the cost, or adoption.

If both are too self involved to be able to make a common decision, the law will have to step in on behalf of THE CHILD. It's not about the parents anymore. That train has left the station. It's now about a child they created. The child needs a decent future.

I absolutely agree with you Dom. You see we were not talking about the minute a baby is growing. We were talking about before there is a baby when the woman is in the first stages of pregnancy. We think if the woman gets to have an abortion, then the man should be allowed to have a metaphorical abortion in this time frame. The fetus is not a baby yet and has no rights. This is about the rights of the man to decide he does or doesn't want anything to do with a potential baby and the woman's rights to make a decision about abortion, adoption, or raising a baby all on her own.
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02-01-2014, 01:20 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 01:06 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 10:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  The minute a baby is growing, you are parents. You are responsible for what happens to a life. The smart thing is to settle this in advance. If you are not smart enough and can't think with your head before involving other body parts, you need to negotiate until you arrive at a common decision after the fact. Stupid, but happens all the time.

You have 5 choices: Abortion, woman raises and man pays, man raises and woman pays, they share the raising and the cost, or adoption.

If both are too self involved to be able to make a common decision, the law will have to step in on behalf of THE CHILD. It's not about the parents anymore. That train has left the station. It's now about a child they created. The child needs a decent future.

I absolutely agree with you Dom. You see we were not talking about the minute a baby is growing. We were talking about before there is a baby when the woman is in the first stages of pregnancy. We think if the woman gets to have an abortion, then the man should be allowed to have a metaphorical abortion in this time frame. The fetus is not a baby yet and has no rights. This is about the rights of the man to decide he does or doesn't want anything to do with a potential baby and the woman's rights to make a decision about abortion, adoption, or raising a baby all on her own.

No, it's not about that.

It is about two people being responsible about a life they created. Two people. They have 5 choices now, where they used to have none.

But each is responsible for half of everything that baby needs, should it be born.

If you can't get along with your partner and reach reasonable decisions together, don't freaking sleep with them.

If your penis simply seeks out a vagina, you have voided your choice. You chose not to choose a compatible mate, even though somebody told you that sex causes babies.

Both are at fault, both are responsible. Period.

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02-01-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 01:20 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 01:06 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I absolutely agree with you Dom. You see we were not talking about the minute a baby is growing. We were talking about before there is a baby when the woman is in the first stages of pregnancy. We think if the woman gets to have an abortion, then the man should be allowed to have a metaphorical abortion in this time frame. The fetus is not a baby yet and has no rights. This is about the rights of the man to decide he does or doesn't want anything to do with a potential baby and the woman's rights to make a decision about abortion, adoption, or raising a baby all on her own.

No, it's not about that.

It is about two people being responsible about a life they created. Two people. They have 5 choices now, where they used to have none.

But each is responsible for half of everything that baby needs, should it be born.

If you can't get along with your partner and reach reasonable decisions together, don't freaking sleep with them.

If your penis simply seeks out a vagina, you have voided your choice. You chose not to choose a compatible mate, even though somebody told you that sex causes babies.

Both are at fault, both are responsible. Period.
No Dom, they don't have 5 choices.
She has 5 choices, he has none.

Again, tell me this doesn't sound like a pro life argument if you just revers the genders

If your penis simply seeks out a vagina, you have voided your choice. You chose not to choose a compatible mate, even though somebody told you that sex causes babies.

to

If your vagina simply seeks out a penis, you have voided your choice. You chose not to choose a compatible mate, even though somebody told you that sex causes babies.

Do you agree with the second statement? If you don't then you are using double standards. If you do, then you are making a pro life argument.

Why is it that for a man getting a woman pregnant means that he voided all his choices, but for a woman who got pregnant by a man that doesn't mean she voided her choices?

If you are really holding both of them equally responsible , then pregnancy should mean that they both voided their choices or you allow for both of them ways out of their mistake independently of other person decision.

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02-01-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
Let's stop the accusatory tone as if the two people having sex were definitely being irresponsible. Let's say she was on the pill, let's say the condom broke. They took all precautions and the pregnancy still happened. This is easily a real-world scenario, so don't act like all situations are of men just ejaculating inside of women with no protection, and women just letting it happen.

Sure there are people out there who don't think ahead, and that is unintelligent IMO. But also nothing is 100%. Sex isn't shameful, and an accident resulting from it is NOT required to be a life changing event. Of course this is different if you actually believe the potential person/fetus/zygote is a human being with rights. If I believed that I would be pro-forcedbirth, and I would also say men have no rights on choosing to contribute.

But introducing abortion changes the rights. A birth no longer HAS to occur, and an accident no longer has to change your life. That is, if you are a woman. A man on the other hand, better keep his damned pants on huh?

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