Should Child Support Be Abolished?
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02-01-2014, 01:58 PM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2014 02:04 PM by Slowminded.)
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
One more thing, wtf is it with this suggesting that you should have sex exclusively with people with whom you are comfortable raising kids with?
What is this? Catholic school?


edit:
Fuck, I know I said so, but it seems that I can't get away from this topic unless I stop reading the thread.

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02-01-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
There has been many arguments put forward RE: Responsibility of making a child and who it falls down to ultimately.

I think some of these arguments are fair and can see the point in them, however no matter what education/opportunities people have we still end up with the situation of many "unwanted" babies.

I am going to guess without research that these systems (child support, CSA over here in the UK) were put into place because there was a lot of people, dominantly men but also including women who were not financially supporting any children they were having.

So my answer to "should child support be abolished" is no..... not until the problem of people having children who cannot support them is solved (prob never)

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02-01-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 01:41 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 01:20 PM)Dom Wrote:  No, it's not about that.

It is about two people being responsible about a life they created. Two people. They have 5 choices now, where they used to have none.

But each is responsible for half of everything that baby needs, should it be born.

If you can't get along with your partner and reach reasonable decisions together, don't freaking sleep with them.

If your penis simply seeks out a vagina, you have voided your choice. You chose not to choose a compatible mate, even though somebody told you that sex causes babies.

Both are at fault, both are responsible. Period.
No Dom, they don't have 5 choices.
She has 5 choices, he has none.

Again, tell me this doesn't sound like a pro life argument if you just revers the genders

If your penis simply seeks out a vagina, you have voided your choice. You chose not to choose a compatible mate, even though somebody told you that sex causes babies.

to

If your vagina simply seeks out a penis, you have voided your choice. You chose not to choose a compatible mate, even though somebody told you that sex causes babies.

Do you agree with the second statement? If you don't then you are using double standards. If you do, then you are making a pro life argument.

Why is it that for a man getting a woman pregnant means that he voided all his choices, but for a woman who got pregnant by a man that doesn't mean she voided her choices?

If you are really holding both of them equally responsible , then pregnancy should mean that they both voided their choices or you allow for both of them ways out of their mistake independently of other person decision.

They both voided their choice when the bring a third party into the game - a party that desperately needs care for many years to come.

This is not about pro life or pro choice, this is about a human being being deprived of a decent start in life if the two nitwits who created it don't either agree on abortion or adoption or three ways to raise the kid.

As soon as that human being is in the picture, both have voided their own rights in favor of the baby's needs.

Actions have consequences, irresponsible actions have more serious consequences. If you want to sleep around, get your tubes cut and insist on her being on the pill and top it off with a rubber.

When people have sex, babies result. It's the way the world works. You don't want it, behave accordingly.

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02-01-2014, 04:36 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
So for you Dom men can only decide on preventive measures, should an accident happen they're at the woman's will about their fatherhood, right?

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02-01-2014, 04:49 PM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2014 05:05 PM by Dom.)
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 04:36 PM)nach_in Wrote:  So for you Dom men can only decide on preventive measures, should an accident happen they're at the woman's will about their fatherhood, right?

Are you people deaf?

As soon as there is a pregnancy BOTH people have to be responsible for what happens. There are 5 choices - abortion, he raises the kid and she pays, she raises the kid and he pays, both share the raising of the kid and the cost, or the kid gets adopted.

If they find themselves in a situation where they cannot agree, it is both their fault.

Having sex creates babies. It's procreation. Just because you prefer looking at it as recreation doesn't change the world, it's still procreation. Babies will result, if not this time then the next time or the next.

So, if you want sex without raising babies, you better either have the conversation beforehand and make sure you both agree on a course of action.

The male can also have a simple, pain free operation, in addition to insisting she is on the pill or takes the morning after pill (keep these on hand) , in addition to a condom. Between the three, chances that there will be a pregnancy is remote.

You know the deal when you go into it, prepare yourself properly. You = the people having sex. Just act fucking responsibly (pun intended).

I have no sympathy for whining afterwards. They both CHOSE this.

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02-01-2014, 05:05 PM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2014 05:12 PM by Losty.)
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 04:49 PM)Dom Wrote:  Are you people deaf?
Perhaps if you make a video we'll be able to ear you better, love. Tongue

Quote:As soon as there is a pregnancy BOTH people have to be responsible for what happens. There are 5 choices - abortion, he raises the kid and she pays, she raises the kid and he pays, both share the raising of the kid and the cost, or the kid gets adopted.

The problem with this is that you are living in a fantasy world. Legally speaking the man has zero say in the case of abortion. Legally speaking he has zero say in whether or not the baby is given up for adoption. Legally speaking he does not get to raise the baby and ask for child support, that right automatically goes to the woman and if he wants to change it he will have to fight her in court. In many states his chances of getting custody are shit. Maybe if the mother is a convicted felon and a known crack addict, but even that isn't always enough to sway some judges that it's acceptable to give a baby to a man instead of a woman.

These choices you offer are for women only. Men have no legal recourse in the case of an accidental pregnancy. All they can do is sit around and hope the woman doesn't make a choice that ruins their life.
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02-01-2014, 05:09 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 04:49 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 04:36 PM)nach_in Wrote:  So for you Dom men can only decide on preventive measures, should an accident happen they're at the woman's will about their fatherhood, right?

Are you people deaf?

As soon as there is a pregnancy BOTH people have to be responsible for what happens. There are 5 choices - abortion, he raises the kid and she pays, she raises the kid and he pays, both share the raising of the kid and the cost, or the kid gets adopted.

If they find themselves in a situation where they cannot agree, it is both their fault.

Having sex creates babies. It's procreation. Just because you prefer looking at is as recreation doesn't change the world, it's still procreation. Babies will result, if not this time then the next time or the next.

So, if you want sex without raising babies, you better either have the conversation beforehand and make sure you both agree on a course of action.

The male can also have a simple, pain free operation, in addition to insisting she is on the pill or takes the morning after pill (keep these on hand) , in addition to a condom. Between the three, chances that there will be a pregnancy is remote.

You know the deal when you go into it, prepare yourself properly. You = the people having sex. Just act fucking responsibly (pun intended).

I have no sympathy for whining afterwards. They both CHOSE this.

I'm not deaf, I just find it hard to understand how your stance is fair for men.

We're not saying the parents shouldn't be responsible for their kids once they have them, but if woman can decide to not have a kid disregarding the will of the father, then why can't the father have some similar choice as to being responsible for a kid?

It seems women have a get out of jail card but men don't, men can't even demand women to take a morning after pill. If an accident happens then men are screwed and without any options unlike women. There lies the concern, is there a way to let men have a similar option?

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02-01-2014, 05:16 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 05:05 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 04:49 PM)Dom Wrote:  Are you people deaf?
Perhaps if you make a video we'll be able to ear you better, love. Tongue

Quote:As soon as there is a pregnancy BOTH people have to be responsible for what happens. There are 5 choices - abortion, he raises the kid and she pays, she raises the kid and he pays, both share the raising of the kid and the cost, or the kid gets adopted.

The problem this is that you are living in a fantasy world. Legally speaking the man has zero say in the case of abortion. Legally speaking he has zero say in whether or not the baby is given up for adoption. Legally speaking he does get to raise the baby and ask for child support that right automatically goes to the woman and if he wants to change it he will have to fight her in court. In many states his chances of getting custody are shit. Maybe if the mother is a convicted felon and a known crack addict, but even that isn't always enough to sway some judges that it's acceptable to give a baby to a man instead of a woman.

These choices you offer are for women only. Men have no legal recourse in the case of an accidental pregnancy. All the can do is sit around and hope the woman doesn't make a choice that ruins their life.

That is why one has to have THE CONVERSATION first, and/or assemble a near fool proof way to prevent pregnancy.

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02-01-2014, 05:21 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
(02-01-2014 05:16 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 05:05 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Perhaps if you make a video we'll be able to ear you better, love. Tongue


The problem this is that you are living in a fantasy world. Legally speaking the man has zero say in the case of abortion. Legally speaking he has zero say in whether or not the baby is given up for adoption. Legally speaking he does get to raise the baby and ask for child support that right automatically goes to the woman and if he wants to change it he will have to fight her in court. In many states his chances of getting custody are shit. Maybe if the mother is a convicted felon and a known crack addict, but even that isn't always enough to sway some judges that it's acceptable to give a baby to a man instead of a woman.

These choices you offer are for women only. Men have no legal recourse in the case of an accidental pregnancy. All the can do is sit around and hope the woman doesn't make a choice that ruins their life.

That is why one has to have THE CONVERSATION first, and/or assemble a near fool proof way to prevent pregnancy.

And abstinence is the best way to prevent STIs Hobo

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02-01-2014, 05:21 PM
RE: Should Child Support Be Abolished?
Since it seems fun, I'll make a small list of some scenarios and how they will likely legally pan out in the U.S. today.

Accidental pregnancy. Man wants the baby, woman does not. Woman gets an abortion.
--+1 for women.
Accidental pregnancy. Man wants main custody of the baby, woman wants main custody of the baby. Woman likely will get main Custody. If lucky split custody.
--+1 for women
Accidental pregnancy. Both do not want the baby. Woman gets the abortion or they give the baby up for adoption.
--+1 for both
Accidental pregnancy. Man does not want the baby. Woman wants the baby. Woman has the baby AND man has to pay child support.
--+1 for women
Underhanded pregnancy. The man intentionally got a girl pregnant against her wishes. Woman has choice to abort.
--+1 for women
Underhanded pregnancy. The woman intentionally got pregnant knowing the man did not want it. Woman has baby AND man has to pay child support.
--+1 for women

So that's +6 for women, +1 for men?

The only scenario where a man gets what he wants, is when his wants are the same as the woman's. In other words, women overwhelmingly have "reproductive rights" while men only have the right to not have sex, or hope that no accidents ever happen.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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