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Should Sanders back out?
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10-06-2016, 09:34 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
(10-06-2016 06:05 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Good luck convincing enough of them to actually do anything about it. The vast majority know the system is broken, but how many of them know and or care enough to actually do something about it? They already don't care enough to vote.

The great double edged sword of freedom is the right to remain ignorant.

Yeah, I'm very aware that it likely won't happen.


(10-06-2016 06:05 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 02:20 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Unfortunately, most Americans cast their vote as if they're betting on a horse; they take pride in voting for the winner. If more Americans voted their conscience, a multiparty system would evolve naturally.

Doesn't work that way, because our system doesn't favor it, and people at least know that much. What if everyone did vote for whoever they wanted, with the winner being the one with the most votes? If for example there were 6 serious candidates, all sharing about equal support, no matter who the winner is they will be representing only a minority of voters. After a few elections, people catch on that their candidate or party isn't winning elections, and will start to vote for those who appear to be able to win; creating a feedback loop that will destroy all of the lesser parties. This whittles down the field, with the inevitable outcome being two diametrically opposed parties left standing as most people vote based on who they want to keep out of office more so than for who they actually want in.

Exactly my point, regarding the emphasized passage. Until that horsetrack mentality changes, the two-party system will maintain its chokehold. Americans have this idea that voting for a third-party candidate is "throwing away" their vote, as if the only thing that justifies a vote is the victory of the chosen candidate.

The only vote thrown away is the one left uncast.
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10-06-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
(10-06-2016 09:34 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Exactly my point, regarding the emphasized passage. Until that horsetrack mentality changes, the two-party system will maintain its chokehold. Americans have this idea that voting for a third-party candidate is "throwing away" their vote, as if the only thing that justifies a vote is the victory of the chosen candidate.

The only vote thrown away is the one left uncast.


But a third party vote is a wasted vote if that person doesn't win.

The resurgence of a viable third party has done nothing but cause whichever major party is closest to it's platform to lose the election. So if you're a liberal, voting for a true third party progressive would do nothing but cost the Democrats votes they'd otherwise count on and give the election over to the Republicans; something both Democratic and liberally minded independent voters would both hate more than just their preferred candidate losing to another liberal. So you play it smart, you vote for the candidate most likely to actually stand up to the candidate you fear the most getting into office. Repeat ad nauseum. It's not stupid, it's the smartest thing you can do given the system in place; it's just that this system will always favor diametrically opposed two parties, and so that's what we get.

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10-06-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
(10-06-2016 09:24 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 09:19 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  Things like this for example

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-04-17...ranscripts

The problem there is as slimy as Hillary is Trump is worse. If it were up to me Sanders would be the candidate with Warren as his VP but sadly that is not to be. Given the alternatives I will take Hillary just because I know what we are going to get from her a competent government that accomplishes little to nothing and a Supreme court that is either balanced or leans slightly to the left. The alternative could literally be doomsday scenarios up to and including Nuclear war.

Trump won't do much as president. I would be surprised if he even got the wall up. But I would like to take note that the debate on who to vote for is who is less scary to you. It is a shame, what ever happened to merit.

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10-06-2016, 10:02 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
(10-06-2016 09:47 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 09:24 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The problem there is as slimy as Hillary is Trump is worse. If it were up to me Sanders would be the candidate with Warren as his VP but sadly that is not to be. Given the alternatives I will take Hillary just because I know what we are going to get from her a competent government that accomplishes little to nothing and a Supreme court that is either balanced or leans slightly to the left. The alternative could literally be doomsday scenarios up to and including Nuclear war.

Trump won't do much as president. I would be surprised if he even got the wall up. But I would like to take note that the debate on who to vote for is who is less scary to you. It is a shame, what ever happened to merit.

As I said I would prefer Sanders but that option is off the table my choices are between a stable leader who will do some of the things I want and not really damage the country in any way and a rampaging narcissist who has already cause major tensions with one of our biggest Allies (The UK) and has been running on racist and bigoted planks. Based on those merits Clinton is by far the safer bet.

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10-06-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
Quote:But a third party vote is a wasted vote if that person doesn't win.

Voting at all is a waste of time since it never boils down to one vote, if you want to be technical about it. I don't want Hillary to be the next president. Do I like her better than Trump? Yes. Am I going to waste my vote on Hillary, another candidate I DON'T want to win? Heck no! I'm not throwing my vote in the garbage by giving it to a candidate I want to lose. I'm using my vote productively to vote for a candidate I want to win: Jill Stein. Last I checked one equals one and whoever I vote for gets one more vote. Telling me to vote for Hillary is the same as telling a soccer player he should shoot on his own goal. It doesn't make any sense. Why would I sign off on being governed by a person I don't want to be governed by? Really, that's worse than throwing your vote away. That's voting AGAINST yourself.
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10-06-2016, 10:04 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
My state will go Hillary with no difficulty. I could write in Bernie for all it will matter.
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10-06-2016, 10:07 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
(10-06-2016 10:04 AM)skyking Wrote:  My state will go Hillary with no difficulty. I could write in Bernie for all it will matter.

Unless it boils down to a single vote (and I'll bet my life vs a nickel it won't) you can do that in ANY state. The outcome will be the same.
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10-06-2016, 10:08 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
No, I'd not chance that in a swing state. Enough people take that attitude and it is a heck of a lot more than 1 vote.
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10-06-2016, 10:20 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
(10-06-2016 10:08 AM)skyking Wrote:  No, I'd not chance that in a swing state. Enough people take that attitude and it is a heck of a lot more than 1 vote.

If enough people take that attitude then Jill Stein will become president.
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10-06-2016, 10:41 AM
RE: Should Sanders back out?
(10-06-2016 09:42 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-06-2016 09:34 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Exactly my point, regarding the emphasized passage. Until that horsetrack mentality changes, the two-party system will maintain its chokehold. Americans have this idea that voting for a third-party candidate is "throwing away" their vote, as if the only thing that justifies a vote is the victory of the chosen candidate.

The only vote thrown away is the one left uncast.


But a third party vote is a wasted vote if that person doesn't win.

The resurgence of a viable third party has done nothing but cause whichever major party is closest to it's platform to lose the election. So if you're a liberal, voting for a true third party progressive would do nothing but cost the Democrats votes they'd otherwise count on and give the election over to the Republicans; something both Democratic and liberally minded independent voters would both hate more than just their preferred candidate losing to another liberal. So you play it smart, you vote for the candidate most likely to actually stand up to the candidate you fear the most getting into office. Repeat ad nauseum. It's not stupid, it's the smartest thing you can do given the system in place; it's just that this system will always favor diametrically opposed two parties, and so that's what we get.
Horribly false because winning isn't all a 3rd party has to gain. Because of the problematic system of power the 3rd parties gain future benefits if they get a 5% even.

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