Should men be forced to pay child support?
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22-08-2014, 10:25 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:18 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 07:37 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Possible preventative measures... gamblers can go to addiction counseling, but it too might not work. Or they can tell their spouse to lock away the money and hide the account numbers, but they might search for and find them anyway. And, if they do take preventative measures, but still gamble and lose money, they still get the consequences.
You can continue with your analogy, but there is no gamblers equivalent to abortion.

We are at a technological/scientific/medical level where we don't just have to accept the "natural" consequences of our actions. We don't need to lay there and die when we get a serious sickness. We don't need to have a baby just because we got pregnant. There is no reason we should be held back by the natural consequences of our actions in this respect when we break past those consequences in so many others. And even in this, we have broken past the consequence in such ways as the morning after pill and abortion. There are clear options. The issue (to me) is once the pregnancy happens, there are no options for half the people on this planet (well that might not be accurate given the oppressive nature of many cultures...but you know what I mean).
Sure, there can be an equivalent. Abortion in this situation that we are discussing amounts to an opt-out. What if two people gambled together - a really wealthy woman and a man of meager means? They pool their money, each putting in half, and bet. They lose. For the woman, it's no big deal because she has plenty more money. But, for the man, it's a major loss and means losing his house and possibly his family. So he asks the woman to help him out - the opt-out - and give or loan him some money. She refuses. Is she obligated to help him? No, the same as the woman is not obligated to have an abortion if she doesn't want it. Does that mean the man doesn't have to pay up on what he lost and it somehow now becomes the wealthy woman's responsibility? Of course not.

But the main point here is the man has a responsibility not only to the child, but to the woman. And the woman has the responsibility to the man as well as the child. If the man and the woman can't agree on how to handle the pregnancy situation, someone is going to be unhappy. You're suggesting that the woman either be unhappy by having an abortion that she doesn't want or the woman be unhappy by being left will all the responsibility for the child, but the man can be happy by bailing out either way. How is that right to you? The woman doesn't have a bail out choice in this situation. If she doesn't want the abortion, then abortion is not a bail out for her. You think it's ok for the man to walk away from his responsibility, but the woman can't. Just because it's biologically or scientifically possible for the man to bail out doesn't make it morally acceptable. And, after all is said and done, it's the child that loses.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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22-08-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Quote:You could, it's not the same argument. Most of us here would agree that a woman has a right to do with her body what she wants.

But men don't get a choice?
If you take child support you take money which he had to go to his 9-5 for. That's him using his body and time. Money is not just money, it equates (in most situations) to time and effort. And child support is for 18 years... That is a lot of money that equates to a lot of time and effort.

Quote:Many of the arguments you claim to be anti abortion arguments simply aren't, as they're arguments for men taking responsibility for what happens once they've done their bit.

Anti-abortion is about women taking responsibility for their actions.
They have sex and get pregnant as a consequence. Having that child is viewed as taking responsibility for their actions.

Quote:Telling a man to take responsibility for what he has already done and telling a woman she has no right to control her body are widely different stances.

I disagree.
You're dictating what a man can and can't do with his money (and thus body) by forcing them to take responsibility just as anti-abortion is forcing women to stay pregnant and take responsibility for their action.

Quote:It seems some men really lose their shit at the idea of women having more power than them in a situation.

Firstly, I'm pro-men having to pay child support.
Second, I couldn't care less who has the "power". IMO the power is equal because both parties have equal opportunity to say "no" (rape being a separate issue). Everything after that point is consequence that both parties need to accept prior to "off-loading". Thirdly, if anyone is flipping shit about power lose here it's you. You're ragging on about how women should have the right to do whatever the fuck they want with their bodies (even though this in itself is a shitty argument because the law limits all sorts of things you can and can't do with your body.) and how men should have to pay child support. You're the one who's scared to lose power here. Currently if a women gets pregnant she has the power to say "nope". Even if she's pro-life she can give the child up for adoption. This seems to be some sort of fundamental right in your opinion. But what the op is suggesting, that men should (or asking why they don't) have the power to also say "nope", terrifies you because it means equality and heaven forbid there's gender equality because everyone knows that anything short of some sort of total women domination is "misogynist"...

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22-08-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
earmuffs,
The man dictated what happened with his money when he accepted the risk of a possible pregnancy. It's no different than if he broke something really expensive and then had to work to repay it. There is no choice once the responsibility is accepted and the consequences have come along.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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22-08-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Quote:The man dictated what happened with his money when he accepted the risk of a possible pregnancy.

The women dictated what happened to her body when she accepted the risk of possible pregnancy.

See how this works?

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22-08-2014, 10:36 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 10:33 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:The man dictated what happened with his money when he accepted the risk of a possible pregnancy.

The women dictated what happened to her body when she accepted the risk of possible pregnancy.

See how this works?
No, you can't equate money with biology. The woman dictated what would happen with her responsibility to the matter, the same as the man. They BOTH have responsibility regardless of the outcome of the joint or individual decisions.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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22-08-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 10:29 AM)Impulse Wrote:  earmuffs,
The man dictated what happened with his money when he accepted the risk of a possible pregnancy. It's no different than if he broke something really expensive and then had to work to repay it. There is no choice once the responsibility is accepted and the consequences have come along.



I assure you raising a child for 18 yrs does NOT equate to breaking something expensive in a store.

You might try working a bit harder to explain what you mean. Vague descriptions don't help complicated discussions.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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22-08-2014, 10:50 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 10:33 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:The man dictated what happened with his money when he accepted the risk of a possible pregnancy.

The women dictated what happened to her body when she accepted the risk of possible pregnancy.

See how this works?


Ok.
But when two people have sex they BOTH dictate the possible outcome.

Unless your point is only the woman can carry to term.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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22-08-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Men who don't pay child support for children they helped create are assholes.
Women who don't give men the choice to be a part of childs life or NOT are assholes.

sometimes people are just assholes.
Can't legislature or religion that away.

Nope

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22-08-2014, 10:59 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Quote:No, you can't equate money with biology. The woman dictated what would happen with her responsibility to the matter, the same as the man. They BOTH have responsibility regardless of the outcome of the joint or individual decisions.

Money doesn't just grow on trees (or it would be worthless). The vast majority of people have to work for it. As in put in physical time and effort. So I can equate money to biology. I can equate it to about $14.25 an hour to be exact. If you take his money without his say (beyond sticking his dick into vag) than you are taking away his right to "his body" because he has to work harder and/or longer in order to receive the same amount of money he otherwise would have.

Why is 9 months of being pregnant > than 18 years of child support?

Pregnancy is an inconvenience, it's not like you had a stroke and now have no movement in the side of your face. Yes it has inherent risks but so does going to work. I'm not saying it's a cake walk but I'm not saying it's the worse thing that can ever happen to the female body either.

I agree that you accept the risks when you say yes and those risks are different for each sex but I'm asking (because I like to argue for the sake of arguing and because nobody has had a good explanation regarding why males should HAVE to pay child support in this thread yet) why is there an inequality when it comes to this issue? Yes both genders have different risk, so why? What is so wrong with making the risks equal? Is gender equality only okay when it effects women?

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22-08-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 10:49 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  I assure you raising a child for 18 yrs does NOT equate to breaking something expensive in a store.
I wasn't equating the two. Earmuffs was attempting to equate a man involving his time and body to earn money to support the child with a woman involving her body to bear a child or have an abortion. And he was saying that, if a man can't dictate what a woman does with her body, then a woman can't dictate what a man does with his. My point was to show that the woman doesn't dictate that the man must use his body to earn money for the child. The man dictates that himself when he chooses to participate in sex and accepts the resulting responsibilities. The example of breaking something was to cut off the angle that having to spend money is a negative that the man should automatically have a choice about because he doesn't like the consequences which involves using his body.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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