Should men be forced to pay child support?
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22-08-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 10:59 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:No, you can't equate money with biology. The woman dictated what would happen with her responsibility to the matter, the same as the man. They BOTH have responsibility regardless of the outcome of the joint or individual decisions.

Money doesn't just grow on trees (or it would be worthless). The vast majority of people have to work for it. As in put in physical time and effort. So I can equate money to biology. I can equate it to about $14.25 an hour to be exact. If you take his money without his say (beyond sticking his dick into vag) than you are taking away his right to "his body" because he has to work harder and/or longer in order to receive the same amount of money he otherwise would have.

Why is 9 months of being pregnant > than 18 years of child support?

Pregnancy is an inconvenience, it's not like you had a stroke and now have no movement in the side of your face. Yes it has inherent risks but so does going to work. I'm not saying it's a cake walk but I'm not saying it's the worse thing that can ever happen to the female body either.

I agree that you accept the risks when you say yes and those risks are different for each sex but I'm asking (because I like to argue for the sake of arguing and because nobody has had a good explanation regarding why males should HAVE to pay child support in this thread yet) why is there an inequality when it comes to this issue? Yes both genders have different risk, so why? What is so wrong with making the risks equal? Is gender equality only okay when it effects women?
There is an inequality because of biological differences - ones that you are attempting unsuccessfully to bridge. Sorry, but physical labor doesn't equate to a medical procedure. Nor does it have possible moral consequences like abortion. Personally, I have no problem with abortion, but many people believe it is murder and not necessarily all due to religious reasons either. For them, it is a moral issue. Finally, you can work at a desk if you're that opposed to physical labor. Yes, your body will still have to type of write or shuffle papers, but the argument that this is somehow oppressive grows very dim there. Your analogy is a really really big stretch and it fails.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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22-08-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Quote:My point was to show that the woman doesn't dictate that the man must use his body to earn money for the child. The man dictates that himself when he chooses to participate in sex and accepts the resulting responsibilities.

The women dictates that herself (what happens to her body) when she chooses to participate in sex and accepts the resulting responsibility.

Quote:And he was saying that, if a man can't dictate what a woman does with her body, then a woman can't dictate what a man does with his.

Strawman.
Also, it would be if a man can't dictate what a women does with her body, than a man can't dictate what a man does with his. Or women dictate or basically whomever is in government at the time because this has nothing to do with a certain sex dictating anything and if it was it would be the government, not an entire gender class.

Quote:Sorry, but physical labor doesn't equate to a medical procedure.

Medical procedure? It's a fucking pregnancy... women have children in taxi cabs ffs. It's hardly a heart transplant. And there are inherent risks with work as well.

Quote:Nor does it have possible moral consequences like abortion. Personally, I have no problem with abortion, but many people believe it is murder and not necessarily all due to religious reasons either. For them, it is a moral issue.

Which comes back to the anti-abortion thing of women accepting consequences.

Quote:Finally, you can work at a desk if you're that opposed to physical labor.

I didn't mean physical labor specifically. I simple meant time and effort, it includes a desk job too.

Quote:Your analogy is a really really big stretch and it fails.

No it's not and no it doesn't.

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22-08-2014, 11:28 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Earmuffs, you seem out be coming out with the same old argument that patriarchy is so fond of, that men can do what they want consequence free but women have to bear the consequences of sex.

Hate the belief, love the believer.
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22-08-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 11:28 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  Earmuffs, you seem out be coming out with the same old argument that patriarchy is so fond of, that men can do what they want consequence free but women have to bear the consequences of sex.

I never said that...
Also, are you saying that men have no feels when it comes to abortion?


(just realized my last post in this thread was my 12,345th post lol)

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22-08-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 11:23 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:My point was to show that the woman doesn't dictate that the man must use his body to earn money for the child. The man dictates that himself when he chooses to participate in sex and accepts the resulting responsibilities.

The women dictates that herself (what happens to her body) when she chooses to participate in sex and accepts the resulting responsibility.
Yes, the women accepts the risk of pregnancy if that's what you mean and she accepts that she will need to choice whether to have the baby or abort.

(22-08-2014 11:23 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:And he was saying that, if a man can't dictate what a woman does with her body, then a woman can't dictate what a man does with his.

Strawman.
If it's a strawman, then I misunderstood you, in which case I have no idea what you're trying to say.

(22-08-2014 11:23 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Also, it would be if a man can't dictate what a women does with her body, than a man can't dictate what a man does with his. Or women dictate or basically whomever is in government at the time because this has nothing to do with a certain sex dictating anything and if it was it would be the government, not an entire gender class.
It has to do with two people accepting responsibility and having somewhat different choices in that responsibility due to biological differences.

(22-08-2014 11:23 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Sorry, but physical labor doesn't equate to a medical procedure.

Medical procedure? It's a fucking pregnancy... women have children in taxi cabs ffs. It's hardly a heart transplant. And there are inherent risks with work as well.
An abortion is a medical procedure.

(22-08-2014 11:23 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Nor does it have possible moral consequences like abortion. Personally, I have no problem with abortion, but many people believe it is murder and not necessarily all due to religious reasons either. For them, it is a moral issue.

Which comes back to the anti-abortion thing of women accepting consequences.
Anti-abortion is a distinctly separate subject and you're attempts to equate the two don't make it fact. Accepting responsibility doesn't necessarily mean having the child. If the woman chooses to have an abortion, that is her way of accepting responsibility. In fact, she has no choice but to accept responsibility, unlike the man.

(22-08-2014 11:23 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Finally, you can work at a desk if you're that opposed to physical labor.

I didn't mean physical labor specifically. I simple meant time and effort, it includes a desk job too.
That only makes your analogy worse, not better.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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22-08-2014, 11:58 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Me: *Wearing a condom*, "Are you on the pill", "I don't want kids", etc. Means I don't want kids.

Her: " I'm on the pill", "I don't want kids either", etc. Means its completely her problem if she gets pregnant. I don't HAVE to have a kid if she gets pregnant. She doesn't HAVE to have a kid of she gets pregnant... So I don't HAVE to support any kid she produces that we initially agreed we weren't buying.

Accidentally creating a zygote is not the same as purposely nourishing it and allowing it to grow a mouth which then needs to be fed. We didn't want kids, so if she goes ahead and builds a baby from an accidental zygote, she should accept the responsibility of that baby.

If you accidentally manage to drop some gunpowder in somebody's pipe, they don't have to screw a couple ends on it, drill a hole and shove a fuse in there.

Of course that only applies in cases where both parties meet the initial terms I listed.
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22-08-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 11:58 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Me: *Wearing a condom*, "Are you on the pill", "I don't want kids", etc. Means I don't want kids.

Her: " I'm on the pill", "I don't want kids either", etc. Means its completely her problem if she gets pregnant. I don't HAVE to have a kid if she gets pregnant. She doesn't HAVE to have a kid of she gets pregnant... So I don't HAVE to support any kid she produces that we initially agreed we weren't buying.
The problem with this is you left out the other half of the discussion about what they agreed upon IF the pregnancy happened anyway. They still have a joint responsibility if the pregnancy happens regardless of what they agreed on. So, if they didn't agree that it's acceptable for the man to be free of that responsibility, then he isn't.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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22-08-2014, 12:08 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
If you decided to have sex you are on the hook from that time until the kid turns 18. If you are a man you are at the mercy of the mom and the family court system.

While I agree with a lot of what earmuffs is saying, I do not see where allowing fathers to opt out of paying would be in the best interest of the kid.

One of the reason I did not have casual sex while a young adult. Never sleep with a woman you are not willing to raise a child with. Shit happens.
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22-08-2014, 12:37 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 12:03 PM)Impulse Wrote:  The problem with this is you left out the other half of the discussion about what they agreed upon IF the pregnancy happened anyway. They still have a joint responsibility if the pregnancy happens regardless of what they agreed on. So, if they didn't agree that it's acceptable for the man to be free of that responsibility, then he isn't.

Okay then I guess I'm going to have to work on rephrasing "I don't want kids" in such a way that directly states that I will not be a father or financial support pillar, that they will then agree to, without destroying my chance of sexy time. Once my terms have been agreed to:

She isn't being forced to have a child. So her choice to have that child shouldn't then give her a choice to force financial burdens on someone else.
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22-08-2014, 01:20 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 12:37 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Okay then I guess I'm going to have to work on rephrasing "I don't want kids" in such a way that directly states that I will not be a father or financial support pillar, that they will then agree to, without destroying my chance of sexy time. Once my terms have been agreed to:

She isn't being forced to have a child. So her choice to have that child shouldn't then give her a choice to force financial burdens on someone else.
No one is being forced into anything assuming the sex is consensual. If all the pregnancy-related decisions are agreed upon before sex, then there is no problem with what to do if pregnancy happens. If someone then changes their mind, well tough. It's too late for that.

And I realize that isn't always practical. Two single people might just hit it off quickly and have a spontaneous sexual encounter. There isn't anything wrong with that, but it does make it awkward to interrupt the passion of the moment with "excuse me, but we really should discuss all the risks and how we will handle them first". So go ahead, have the sex, but understand neither can rightfully walk away from the "accident" if that's how it turns out no matter what you may disagree about once it's too late. No one is forcing you to have spontaneous sex and, as long as you're willing to accept the responsibility of all the possible consequences, then no one is blaming you either.

The notion that the woman would be forcing financial burdens on a man that freely chose sex while knowing all the risks frankly astounds me.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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