Should men be forced to pay child support?
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25-08-2014, 06:45 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 11:07 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 11:01 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  So I take it that you don't agree with/support abortion then? Consider

That's entirely up to the woman. People should have the right to do what they want with their bodies.

Fixed!

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25-08-2014, 06:54 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 12:55 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Gotta admit, on the topic of custody laws, if I ever have kids and lose custody of them based on my gender, I'll hit the roof. It does really piss me off that women get such preferential treatment in those cases usually.

Women are biologically more equipped for raising children. I'm not being sexist (just as a little example (we all know how good breast milk is) men don't have tits and think about hormones). I think it actually makes more sense to give the child to the woman in most situations (obviously if she beats them with a rake or such like then she would not get them), and people need to stop whining about it.

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25-08-2014, 06:55 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 01:40 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  There are a lot of assumptions out there about single parents -- and particularly single moms. For example, there are people who believe that "most" single moms choose to raise their kids solo, are unemployed, and receive government assistance. While every family's story is different, most don't support these assumptions. When you examine U.S. Census data, the actual single parent statistics may surprise you. Let's take a look...

Single Parents By the Numbers

According to Custodial Mothers and Fathers and Their Child Support: 2009, a report released by the U.S. Census Bureau every two years (and most recently in December 2011), there are approximately 13.7 million single parents in the United States today, and those parents are responsible for raising 22 million children. This number represents approximately 26% of children under 21 in the U.S. today.


Despite negative assumptions that most single moms "selfishly" chose to raise their kids solo, the majority of individuals raising children alone started out in committed relationships and never expected to be single parents. Here's a picture of the "typical" single parent, according to the U.S. Census Bureau:

She's a Single Mother

The presumption that most single parents are mothers is accurate. According to the Census data:

Approximately 82.2% of custodial parents are mothers, and
17.8% of custodial parents (approximately 1 in 6) are fathers

She is Divorced or Separated

The assumption that "most" single mothers are were single from the outset is false. Of the mothers who are custodial parents:

44.2% are currently divorced or separated
36.8% have never been married
18% are married (In most cases, these numbers represent women who have remarried.)
1.1% were widowed
Of the fathers who are custodial parents:
53.5% are divorced or separated
24.7% have never married1

She is Employed

Another assumption about single moms is that most are unemployed. Again, that notion is not true according to the Census data.


76% of custodial single mothers are gainfully employed (53.2% work full time, year round and 22.8% work part-time or part-year)
85.1% of custodial single fathers are gainfully employed2

She and Her Children Do Not Live in Poverty

One single parent family in poverty is one too many, but according to the U.S. Census data, poverty isn't the norm for most single parent families. However, custodial single mothers and their children are twice as likely to live in poverty as the general population. According to the Census:

In 2009 14.3% of the total U.S. population lived in poverty
30.4% of custodial single mothers and their children lived in poverty
18.8% of custodial single fathers and their children lived in poverty

She Does Not Receive Public Assistance

Another assumption about single moms is that "most" receive government assistance. According to the actual data:

In 2009, 41.3% of custodial mothers received some form of government assistance
32.3% received SNAP (Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program) benefits
6.8% of custodial single moms received TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families)
20.9% of custodial fathers received some form of government assistance

She is 40 Years Old or Older

Another assumption about single moms is that "most" are young. According to the actual data:

37.2% of custodial single mothers are 40 years old or older

She is Raising One Child

Finally, another assumption about single moms is that "most" are raising multiple children. In reality:

57.2% of custodial mothers are raising one child from the absent parent
44.1% have two or more children living with them
While these numbers give a snapshot, they don't tell the real story about what it means to be a single parent. For every story you hear about a single mom or dad abusing government benefits or living up to some other negative stereotype, remember that those behaviors don't reflect the reality most single parent families face. If you want to know more, ignore the stereotypes altogether and get to know the single mom who lives next door or whose children attend the same school as your own kids. First-hand experience is the best way to buck these widely held stereotypes and build a community of support in their place!


Article above stolen quoted from
http://singleparents.about.com/od/legali...rtrait.htm


I also found this paper by US.gov Census on single parents, custody, etc

http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-240.pdf

What I see from these numbers is that most single parents don't need child support anyway.

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25-08-2014, 06:59 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 05:09 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 05:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I don't see any solution to this that does not encroach on one party or the other. However to pretend that the encroachment is not happening is disingenuous at best.

Yes, you can argue that men don't get much of a say once they've made the decision to have sex. I'm comfortable with that.

So you are against equality. Women should not be held responsible for pregnancy, but men should.

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25-08-2014, 07:08 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 03:09 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 02:15 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  You could say the same for abortion be illegal.

You could, it's not the same argument. Most of us here would agree that a woman has a right to do with her body what she wants. Many of the arguments you claim to be anti abortion arguments simply aren't, as they're arguments for men taking responsibility for what happens once they've done their bit.

Telling a man to take responsibility for what he has already done and telling a woman she has no right to control her body are widely different stances.

It seems some men really lose their shit at the idea of women having more power than them in a situation.

And why the fuck shouldn't they? Gender egalitarianism is essentially the belief that no one should be given power over another simply because of their gender. Is that wrong?

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25-08-2014, 07:15 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 11:28 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  Earmuffs, you seem out be coming out with the same old argument that patriarchy is so fond of, that men can do what they want consequence free but women have to bear the consequences of sex.

And you are arguing that women should be able to do what they want without consequence but men have to bear the consequences of sex.

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25-08-2014, 10:09 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
I doubt I can add much more that I haven't already said in this thread and I'm not going to just keep repeating myself. But I just want to say this. Assuming everything is honest in the relationship, meaning the two people had consensual sex and communicated accurately about their use of protection (whether they used it or they didn't), then if a pregnancy results, any man who walks away from that wanting to be free of all responsibility is completely selfish. So what if they disagree on whether to abort or have the baby? In the only situation where there would be a lasting issue, which is where the woman didn't abort and the man wanted her to do so, the man walking away would be saying to the woman, even though we were intimate, I don't really give a shit about you, your wishes, or "your" child. That's selfish. Just completely selfish. Dodgy

Now some will argue the same can be said about the woman. She chose not to have an abortion against the man's wishes so she doesn't give a shit about him either and that's also selfish. Well no, that one depends on why she didn't abort. If it's against her personal moral code, for example, that's not selfish. That's her reality. In her view in that case, she has to have the baby now that she's pregnant. The only situation where the woman might be wrong is where she has no particular reason not to have the abortion - except she personally wants the baby - and chooses not to do so against the man's wishes, expecting him to pay child support or to help raise the child.

Those are the two general opposing circumstances about which the law must be made. Require the man to pay child support and risk that last situation where the woman is taking advantage. Don't require the man to pay child support and risk the first situation where the man is being completely selfish. And, unless there is to be no law, but a separate ruling on every individual case of this type (which would completely flood the courts), one or the other must be chosen. The only one of the two choices that has the child's best interests in mind is of course the one that requires the man to pay the child support. And that's why the law is what it is and why it should remain so.

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25-08-2014, 11:04 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
I am probably going to get some heat for this but I wore my big boy pants today so here it goes....

If a guy is truly worried about paying child support he has options. He could not have sex, wear a condom, or who knows what else. But the second you choose to have sex, as a guy, you are taking a risk and it could end up in a pregnancy. I don't buy into the whole forced to pay child support argument because no one forced you to have sex in the first place.

To me this boils down to an issue of control. As a guy in this situation after the deed is done you have no control.... tough shit. The decision is now not up to you; you had your chance to make the decision before you took your clothes off. Whether this is fair or right is of little consequence to me. It is a woman's body and she can do with it as she pleases and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.
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25-08-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(25-08-2014 06:54 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 12:55 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Gotta admit, on the topic of custody laws, if I ever have kids and lose custody of them based on my gender, I'll hit the roof. It does really piss me off that women get such preferential treatment in those cases usually.

Women are biologically more equipped for raising children. I'm not being sexist (just as a little example (we all know how good breast milk is) men don't have tits and think about hormones). I think it actually makes more sense to give the child to the woman in most situations (obviously if she beats them with a rake or such like then she would not get them), and people need to stop whining about it.
Are you like from the 1950's or something. That is total crap. Modern studies show that men are just as capable as women when it comes to parenting.
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25-08-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(25-08-2014 10:09 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Assuming everything is honest in the relationship, meaning the two people had consensual sex and communicated accurately about their use of protection (whether they used it or they didn't), then if a pregnancy results, any man who walks away from that wanting to be free of all responsibility is completely selfish. So what if they disagree on whether to abort or have the baby? In the only situation where there would be a lasting issue, which is where the woman didn't abort and the man wanted her to do so, the man walking away would be saying to the woman, even though we were intimate, I don't really give a shit about you, your wishes, or "your" child. That's selfish. Just completely selfish. Dodgy

You say it like there's something wrong with that... If they were completely honest and the guy states that he will not be a father or financial support, and they still bang, it would be dishonest of the woman to file for child support.

Quote:Now some will argue the same can be said about the woman. She chose not to have an abortion against the man's wishes so she doesn't give a shit about him either and that's also selfish. Well no, that one depends on why she didn't abort. If it's against her personal moral code, for example, that's not selfish. That's her reality.

Appeal to feels? Srsly? Dodgy

What if the man has some terribad genetic trait or hereditary disease that will either harm the child or negatively impact the world? Would that trump an appeal to feels?

And if we're accepting morality based on feels, why is some (albeit probably completely fucked up) emotional reasoning from the man not applicable?
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