Should men be forced to pay child support?
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25-08-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(25-08-2014 03:14 PM)Ferdinand Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 02:53 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Have you not been to Atheism +?

Nope, only here and AF.

If you ever want to see full on hysterics Atheism + is the place.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-08-2014, 03:55 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(25-08-2014 12:59 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-08-2014 11:30 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  Appeal to feels? Srsly? Dodgy
How is reality "feels"? If she thinks abortion is murder... maybe the man should just murder her and be done with it. Or is his not wanting to do so, just "feels"? Drinking Beverage

That makes no sense... Murder her? First of all, Mr.Selfish doesn't want to goto prison. Secondly, in reality, she is a contributing member of society who is clearly full of physical and emotional feels; A fetus in the early stages of gestation doesn't have any of that. If she feels that abortion is murder, she's got some work cut out for her before calling that reality.

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(25-08-2014 11:30 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  What if the man has some terribad genetic trait or hereditary disease that will either harm the child or negatively impact the world? Would that trump an appeal to feels?
If there is a real potential harm to the child, then one option is for him to provide just financial support. But honestly, you're sounding desperate now, especially with the "negatively impact the world" bit.

I was wondering if psychopathic traits were hereditary. I suppose even if they were, the psychopath probably wouldn't care about the potentially negative impact on the world.

If the child is severely handicapped, or unlikely to ever make positive contributions to society, any kind of support is only hemorrhaging funds and resources that could be better used elsewhere.

If this sounds desperate, its because I'm playing devils advocate; its pretty difficult to make a case. The only time I'd actually refuse to pay child support is if the mother didn't allow me to be part of my child's life. Since I'm not actually a dick, that would never be justified anyway.
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25-08-2014, 07:59 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(25-08-2014 03:55 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  That makes no sense... Murder her? First of all, Mr.Selfish doesn't want to goto prison. Secondly, in reality, she is a contributing member of society who is clearly full of physical and emotional feels; A fetus in the early stages of gestation doesn't have any of that. If she feels that abortion is murder, she's got some work cut out for her before calling that reality.
Of course murdering her makes no sense. He knows it's murder and it makes no sense. She, in the example I gave, also knows the abortion is murder. Whether it factually is or isn't is beside the point. She believes it so to her it IS murder. This is not "feels". If she has an abortion believing it's murder then the decision process is the same as deciding to commit any murder and has the same moral implications.

(25-08-2014 03:55 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  If the child is severely handicapped, or unlikely to ever make positive contributions to society, any kind of support is only hemorrhaging funds and resources that could be better used elsewhere.
Oh just don't even fucking go there! Angry

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26-08-2014, 08:37 AM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2014 08:55 AM by Adrianime.)
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(23-08-2014 09:58 AM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(22-08-2014 02:09 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I am on a tablet and only have a few minutes to be online today...so this will be short....or not...

My reason for asking about if your stance would change if the baby was formed in an external sack rather than inside a woman was (while admittedly not fully thought out at the time) to check if your reasoning behind abortion had more to do with a a woman's sovereignty over her body, or her sovereignty over the rest of her life. My main reason for supporting abortion is that i fully support a person to have the ability to choose their future, rather than be trapped because of an accident. A woman's sovereignty over her body is a close second to this, and really is a smaller part of just allowing her to choose her future.

As such, my views on abortion or child support would not change if potential humans developed externally. To me it is more about having control over your life...having control over your own body is important, but that isn't usually the "reason" (afaik) for getting an abortion. It seems to instead be the excuse/rule used to uphold your right to live the life you want.

I thought you'd asked that question to ascertain our opinions on whether or not a woman, who knew full well what might accidentally be created, when she decided to have sex, should be forced to pay child support on a baby she doesn't want to raise, & that doesn't require her body to mature, because the father wanted to keep what was initially a collection of cells small enough to fit into a Petri dish around long enough for it to grow a mouth that needs feeding.
And possibly whether or not the woman should be considered a scumbag deadbeat mother for being a little resentful over having to do so.
But the Gules can be slow witted, sometimes. Tongue
That too! The idea of forcing another person's life to change because of your choice...it isn't registering for people. People actually seem incapable of seeing how their arguments are verbatim of anti-abortion arguments. I see two distinct choices. One choice: sex. Second choice (should pregnancy occur): parenthood. When people argue that by agreeing to the first choice you are consenting to the second choice people are making a (double standard) anti-abortion argument (which is fine, if that's your stance, but I wish people would just acknowledge it). I get a feeling that many making these arguments are only accepting of abortion because they "have to be" given their stance on a woman's right to sovereignty over her own body...not that they actually agree with abortion.

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26-08-2014, 08:53 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
There actually are legitimate, convincing pro child support arguments that aren't hypocritical to an abortion-friendly stance...but nobody is making them (although I haven't had a chance to read the past 3 or so pages of the thread yet).

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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26-08-2014, 09:21 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(26-08-2014 08:37 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  When people argue that by agreeing to the first choice you are consenting to the second choice people are making a (double standard) anti-abortion argument (which is fine, if that's your stance, but I wish people would just acknowledge it).
This is where you and some others are getting confused. This is NOT the argument being made. The argument is if either party agrees to the first choice they are both consenting to the possible consequences whatever those may be. The woman having the baby against the man's wishes is only one possibility. I have stated repeatedly that abortion is also one acceptable choice as long as that is ok with her. But that isn't where the disagreement comes from that has occupied the bulk of the discussion in this thread. So attention has been focused on the woman not having an abortion when the man wants her to.

(26-08-2014 08:53 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  There actually are legitimate, convincing pro child support arguments that aren't hypocritical to an abortion-friendly stance...but nobody is making them (although I haven't had a chance to read the past 3 or so pages of the thread yet).
I am pro-choice and certainly not anti-abortion and nothing I have said in this thread is inconsistent with that. You should read the whole thread before commenting on what is or isn't being said. (But at least you admitted to not having done so.)

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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26-08-2014, 05:17 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(26-08-2014 08:53 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  There actually are legitimate, convincing pro child support arguments that aren't hypocritical to an abortion-friendly stance...but nobody is making them (although I haven't had a chance to read the past 3 or so pages of the thread yet).

My point exactly.

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31-08-2014, 04:53 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 07:17 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  This isn't about what the parents want, it's about the needs of the child-- the DEPENDENT. And both parents share the responsibilities of the children they bring into this world.


This is NOT a matter of who wants the child vs abortion/ giving up for adoption.

This is a matter of being responsible for what you participated in creating.

The point is that female consent to parenthood can be revoked at any second. Male consent to parenthood is consent to sex. DOUBLE STANDARD.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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31-08-2014, 05:11 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 04:53 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 07:17 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  This isn't about what the parents want, it's about the needs of the child-- the DEPENDENT. And both parents share the responsibilities of the children they bring into this world.


This is NOT a matter of who wants the child vs abortion/ giving up for adoption.

This is a matter of being responsible for what you participated in creating.

The point is that female consent to parenthood can be revoked at any second. Male consent to parenthood is consent to sex. DOUBLE STANDARD.

Biology mandates that. You have to work with the reality.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-08-2014, 05:25 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 05:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 04:53 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  The point is that female consent to parenthood can be revoked at any second. Male consent to parenthood is consent to sex. DOUBLE STANDARD.

Biology mandates that. You have to work with the reality.

Naturalistic fallacy.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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