Should men be forced to pay child support?
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31-08-2014, 06:07 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:01 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 05:49 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope, no one said that; not me, not Rev. Try reading what I actually said and what I was responding to.

Okay then

(31-08-2014 05:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Biology mandates that. You have to work with the reality

NATURALISTIC FALLACY.
How does biology mandate consent?

Biology mandates that the decision is inherently unequal. That has to be taken into account if you want to find an equitable solution.
It also means that an equitable solution may not be possible. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

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31-08-2014, 06:11 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Biology mandates that the decision is inherently unequal. That has to be taken into account if you want to find an equitable solution.
It also means that an equitable solution may not be possible. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Okay, thank you for actually giving an argument for once.
An equitable solution should be equal consent. If a mother can give up a child to adoption, why can't the father give up resposnisibility? What exactly in biology makes the decision unequal? How is the decision unequal? How does that affect the rights?
Can you clarify?

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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31-08-2014, 06:19 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:11 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Biology mandates that the decision is inherently unequal. That has to be taken into account if you want to find an equitable solution.
It also means that an equitable solution may not be possible. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Okay, thank you for actually giving an argument for once.
An equitable solution should be equal consent. If a mother can give up a child to adoption, why can't the father give up resposnisibility? What exactly in biology makes the decision unequal? How is the decision unequal? How does that affect the rights?
Can you clarify?

A mother cannot give up a child for adoption without the fathers consent.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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31-08-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:11 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  Biology mandates that the decision is inherently unequal. That has to be taken into account if you want to find an equitable solution.
It also means that an equitable solution may not be possible. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Okay, thank you for actually giving an argument for once.
An equitable solution should be equal consent. If a mother can give up a child to adoption, why can't the father give up resposnisibility? What exactly in biology makes the decision unequal? How is the decision unequal? How does that affect the rights?
Can you clarify?

Well, you assert that "an equitable solution should be equal consent." Who says?
'Equitable' is not a synonym for 'equal'.

I responded to your post:
"The point is that female consent to parenthood can be revoked at any second. Male consent to parenthood is consent to sex. DOUBLE STANDARD. "

That is reality, but shouting 'double standard' isn't useful. You have to accept reality before you can move to an equitable outcome. Second, you have to define what problem you are trying to solve. Then you can move on to working on a solution.

And you may have to accept the reality that there are some problems that have no equitable solution. You can't just keep repeating 'should'.

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31-08-2014, 06:24 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:11 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  Okay, thank you for actually giving an argument for once.
An equitable solution should be equal consent. If a mother can give up a child to adoption, why can't the father give up resposnisibility? What exactly in biology makes the decision unequal? How is the decision unequal? How does that affect the rights?
Can you clarify?

A mother cannot give up a child for adoption without the fathers consent.

That may not be universally true, though it might be the majority. I can imagine there are exceptions for minors, the mentally challenged, rape, ...

Hmmm. Consider Google is our friend. Yes

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31-08-2014, 06:31 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, you assert that "an equitable solution should be equal consent." Who says?
'Equitable' is not a synonym for 'equal'.

So you are sexist then? Women should have more rights than men?

(31-08-2014 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  I responded to your post:
"The point is that female consent to parenthood can be revoked at any second. Male consent to parenthood is consent to sex. DOUBLE STANDARD. "

That is reality, but shouting 'double standard' isn't useful. You have to accept reality before you can move to an equitable outcome. Second, you have to define what problem you are trying to solve. Then you can move on to working on a solution.

Unequal consent laws. There's your problem.
Make consent laws equal. Solution.
How is anything wrong with that?

(31-08-2014 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  And you may have to accept the reality that there are some problems that have no equitable solution. You can't just keep repeating 'should'.

Should is a word that comes from "ought" statements rather than "is" statements. Morality and politics should be determining oughts and arriving at them. Equal consent rights are a completely achievable outcome and I think that they should be implemented. If there is a difference, what is it? Then how does it affect the matter? You still have not clarified either of these. Stop using vacuous terms like "equitable solution" and actually be specific.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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31-08-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:19 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  A mother cannot give up a child for adoption without the fathers consent.

That may not be universally true, though it might be the majority. I can imagine there are exceptions for minors, the mentally challenged, rape, ...

Hmmm. Consider Google is our friend. Yes

There may be outliers but I believe under normal circumstances both parents must sign away their rights to put a child up for adoption.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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31-08-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  That may not be universally true, though it might be the majority. I can imagine there are exceptions for minors, the mentally challenged, rape, ...

Hmmm. Consider Google is our friend. Yes

There may be outliers but I believe under normal circumstances both parents must sign away their rights to put a child up for adoption.

Oh, I was unaware of that. I revoke my point about only mother consenting to adoption. It still doesn't leave the problem of the mother having the right to charge the father for having sex with her. That is the only thing he consented to. The mother can still have an abortion though.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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31-08-2014, 06:39 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:36 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  There may be outliers but I believe under normal circumstances both parents must sign away their rights to put a child up for adoption.

Oh, I was unaware of that. I revoke my point about only mother consenting to adoption. It still doesn't leave the problem of the mother having the right to charge the father for having sex with her. That is the only thing he consented to. The mother can still have an abortion though.

Yes and here is where the nature of reality comes crashing down. Her right to body integrity is at odds with your right to self determination. The nod is and should be given to body integrity. So unless you have a solution to that we have reach dead water.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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31-08-2014, 06:47 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:39 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:36 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  Oh, I was unaware of that. I revoke my point about only mother consenting to adoption. It still doesn't leave the problem of the mother having the right to charge the father for having sex with her. That is the only thing he consented to. The mother can still have an abortion though.

Yes and here is where the nature of reality comes crashing down. Her right to body integrity is at odds with your right to self determination. The nod is and should be given to body integrity. So unless you have a solution to that we have reach dead water.

"The nature of reality" is a weird way to put it. I am completely for a woman's right to terminate her own pregnancy. This also is the right to end parenthood. Why is a man's right to end parenthood not also allowed?
If a man has sex, and the condom splits, why is he now legally bound to the child produced by that? Why is it then the woman's decision what his legal relationship is to the child?

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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