Should men be forced to pay child support?
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31-08-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:47 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:39 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yes and here is where the nature of reality comes crashing down. Her right to body integrity is at odds with your right to self determination. The nod is and should be given to body integrity. So unless you have a solution to that we have reach dead water.

"The nature of reality" is a weird way to put it. I am completely for a woman's right to terminate her own pregnancy. This also is the right to end parenthood. Why is a man's right to end parenthood not also allowed?
If a man has sex, and the condom splits, why is he now legally bound to the child produced by that? Why is it then the woman's decision what his legal relationship is to the child?

Because as a society we have decided that the parents of a child have the responsibility to support said child. Some places allow an opt out for men and I believe that should be the case, however you are kind of a scumbag if you choose to take it. But then I think women that use abortion as birth control are bad too, doesn't mean I don't think they have a right to it. Now the problem with that is changing the status quo which was established at a time when most women did not work outside of the house. If you think you can get enough support behind such a measure then go ahead and try.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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31-08-2014, 09:20 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:31 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  Well, you assert that "an equitable solution should be equal consent." Who says?
'Equitable' is not a synonym for 'equal'.

So you are sexist then? Women should have more rights than men?

Don't be such a fucking dope. Go look up those words in a dictionary and get back to me when you actually understand what I said.

Quote:
(31-08-2014 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  I responded to your post:
"The point is that female consent to parenthood can be revoked at any second. Male consent to parenthood is consent to sex. DOUBLE STANDARD. "

That is reality, but shouting 'double standard' isn't useful. You have to accept reality before you can move to an equitable outcome. Second, you have to define what problem you are trying to solve. Then you can move on to working on a solution.

Unequal consent laws. There's your problem.
Make consent laws equal. Solution.
How is anything wrong with that?


Don't be such a fucking dope. I said nothing about laws, I am talking about problem solving. Go look up 'equitable' and 'negotiation' and 'compromise'.
The biology is unequal - you keep refusing to understand reality.

Quote:
(31-08-2014 06:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  And you may have to accept the reality that there are some problems that have no equitable solution. You can't just keep repeating 'should'.

Should is a word that comes from "ought" statements rather than "is" statements. Morality and politics should be determining oughts and arriving at them. Equal consent rights are a completely achievable outcome and I think that they should be implemented. If there is a difference, what is it? Then how does it affect the matter? You still have not clarified either of these. Stop using vacuous terms like "equitable solution" and actually be specific.

Yes, we need to determine 'ought'. You are doing it wrong. Drinking Beverage

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01-09-2014, 02:41 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(31-08-2014 06:47 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:39 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yes and here is where the nature of reality comes crashing down. Her right to body integrity is at odds with your right to self determination. The nod is and should be given to body integrity. So unless you have a solution to that we have reach dead water.

"The nature of reality" is a weird way to put it. I am completely for a woman's right to terminate her own pregnancy. This also is the right to end parenthood. Why is a man's right to end parenthood not also allowed?
If a man has sex, and the condom splits, why is he now legally bound to the child produced by that? Why is it then the woman's decision what his legal relationship is to the child?

Revenant77x, this really comes down to opinion. You think body integrity is more important. spinosauruskin thinks self-determination is more important. Why not try to incorporate both? If a man uses a condom, but the woman still gets pregnant, he has every right to rescind his parenthood. She has the right to rescind her motherhood, obviously. Of course, in the event that he wants a child, but she doesn't... maybe priority should be given to her, since she's the one who will actually have to bear the child.

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01-09-2014, 04:31 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(01-09-2014 02:41 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(31-08-2014 06:47 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  "The nature of reality" is a weird way to put it. I am completely for a woman's right to terminate her own pregnancy. This also is the right to end parenthood. Why is a man's right to end parenthood not also allowed?
If a man has sex, and the condom splits, why is he now legally bound to the child produced by that? Why is it then the woman's decision what his legal relationship is to the child?

Revenant77x, this really comes down to opinion. You think body integrity is more important. spinosauruskin thinks self-determination is more important. Why not try to incorporate both? If a man uses a condom, but the woman still gets pregnant, he has every right to rescind his parenthood. She has the right to rescind her motherhood, obviously. Of course, in the event that he wants a child, but she doesn't... maybe priority should be given to her, since she's the one who will actually have to bear the child.

You can't legislate two separate rules, one for people who use a condom and one for those that don't. That's not how the law works. It's open to abuse and he said/she said.

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01-09-2014, 04:45 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(01-09-2014 04:31 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  You can't legislate two separate rules, one for people who use a condom and one for those that don't. That's not how the law works.

So different circumstances... but the exact same rules? Seems stupid, doesn't it? By that logic, alcoholics should get liver transplants.

(01-09-2014 04:31 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  It's open to abuse and he said/she said.

Too true. That's really the (admittedly enormous) flaw in my idea.

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01-09-2014, 07:19 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Quote:So different circumstances... but the exact same rules? Seems stupid, doesn't it? By that logic, alcoholics should get liver transplants.

I'm pretty sure alcoholics do get liver transplants. And either way, doctors can tell if someone's liver was fucked up due to alcohol.

Quote:Too true. That's really the (admittedly enormous) flaw in my idea.

Yip. It makes it entirely unrealistic and unusable.

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01-09-2014, 10:01 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(01-09-2014 07:19 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:So different circumstances... but the exact same rules? Seems stupid, doesn't it? By that logic, alcoholics should get liver transplants.

I'm pretty sure alcoholics do get liver transplants. And either way, doctors can tell if someone's liver was fucked up due to alcohol.

Quote:Too true. That's really the (admittedly enormous) flaw in my idea.

Yip. It makes it entirely unrealistic and unusable.

I think, at least here in America, that if youre an alcoholic its really hard to get approved for a liver transplant.
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01-09-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Is it called labor day because so many women get knocked up on new years?
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01-09-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(01-09-2014 10:01 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  
(01-09-2014 07:19 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I'm pretty sure alcoholics do get liver transplants. And either way, doctors can tell if someone's liver was fucked up due to alcohol.


Yip. It makes it entirely unrealistic and unusable.

I think, at least here in America, that if youre an alcoholic its really hard to get approved for a liver transplant.

The approval process is stringent, but it appears that damage from alcoholism is the second most common reason for a liver transplant.

From the UCSF web site:
Quote:Liver transplantation currently is the only definitive treatment for severe (end stage) liver failure. A total of 41,734 liver transplants using organs from cadavers were performed in the United States between 1992 and 2001. Of these, 12.5 percent were performed in patients with ALD[alcoholic liver disease], and 5.8 percent were performed in patients with ALD and a concurrent infection with the hepatitis C virus (HCV), making ALD the second most frequent reason (after HCV infection alone) for transplantation.

ALD patients must undergo a thorough evaluation to determine whether they are suitable candidates for transplant. This screening addresses any coexisting medical problems, such as heart damage, cancer, pancreatitis, and osteoporosis, which might influence the outcome of the transplant. It includes a psychological evaluation to identify those patients who are most likely to remain abstinent and comply with the strict medical regimen that follows the procedure.

For transplantation to be successful in alcoholic patients it is essential that they remain abstinent after the surgery and comply with a demanding medical regimen (e.g., consistently take the necessary antirejection medications). Routinely conducting psychiatric evaluations before patients are included on the list of candidates for transplantation helps to identify those who may not be able to meet these criteria.

Because of the shortage of donated organs, transplantation to patients with alcoholic liver disease remains controversial, mainly out of concern that the transplanted liver could be "wasted" if a patient relapses to drinking and damages the new liver as well. Yet the relapse rates in patients following transplant are lower than in patients undergoing alcoholism treatment, and serious relapses that adversely affect the transplanted liver or the patient are uncommon. In contrast, patients who receive a transplant because of an infection with hepatitis B or C viruses typically experience disease recurrence and are more likely to lose the transplanted liver because of recurrence of these infections.

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