Should men be forced to pay child support?
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21-08-2014, 10:57 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 09:44 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Edit: By feminists I mean the crazy totalitarian ones on this fourm, I have met many feminists elsewhere who actually agree with me on this issue.

Citation needed, you demented little scamp.

Citation needed.

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21-08-2014, 10:58 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
I don't think anybody is arguing that a father should be allowed to stop paying child support after a divorce or break-up with the mother that happened after the child was born.

The argument (or at least my argument) is that before the child is born, when there is a decision to be made in early pregnancy (can we afford this child? Do I want this child? Do you want this child?) there ought to be an equal opportunity to opt out. As things stand there is not really an equal opportunity to opt out. Women can opt out via abortion, while men have no options. As such women hold all the cards on if the child gets born (which is fine). Fathers just have to shut up and live with her choice (financially). What I don't consider fine is that her independently made choice will impact the man financially for ~18 years. She gets an opportunity to opt out, so should he. The costs of raising a child should be deeply considered before you have one. If you can't afford it, don't do it, or at the very least, don't complain about not having money when having the kid was your own choice.

Almost every argument I hear against my position would be considered sexist if it were turned around and used against a woman in the case of abortion.

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21-08-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:57 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  When you choose to have sex, you accept you may produce a child. It's that simple. You take all the precautions you feel you need to, but there's always that chance. If you aren't ready to man up and face your responsibilities, there's always your hand to keep you company.
So I take it that you don't agree with/support abortion then? Consider

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21-08-2014, 11:06 AM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2014 11:12 AM by cjlr.)
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:58 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I don't think anybody is arguing that a father should be allowed to stop paying child support after a divorce or break-up with the mother that happened after the child was born.

The argument (or at least my argument) is that before the child is born, when there is a decision to be made in early pregnancy (can we afford this child? Do I want this child? Do you want this child?) there ought to be an equal opportunity to opt out. As things stand there is not really an equal opportunity to opt out. Women can opt out via abortion, while men have no options. As such women hold all the cards on if the child gets born (which is fine). Fathers just have to shut up and live with her choice (financially). What I don't consider fine is that her independently made choice will impact the man financially for ~18 years. She gets an opportunity to opt out, so should he. The costs of raising a child should be deeply considered before you have one. If you can't afford it, don't do it, or at the very least, don't complain about not having money when having the kid was your own choice.

Almost every argument I hear against my position would be considered sexist if it were turned around and used against a woman in the case of abortion.

There can never be an "equal opportunity to opt out". A man deciding to back out of a pregnancy he caused doesn't actually stop it from happening. It's fundamentally dissimilar to abortion in that respect.

One cannot avoid responsibility by changing one's mind after the fact. We don't accept that reasoning in any other aspect of law.

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21-08-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 11:01 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  So I take it that you don't agree with/support abortion then? Consider

That's entirely up to the woman. Women should have the right to do what they want with their bodies.

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21-08-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:58 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I don't think anybody is arguing that a father should be allowed to stop paying child support after a divorce or break-up with the mother that happened after the child was born.

The argument (or at least my argument) is that before the child is born, when there is a decision to be made in early pregnancy (can we afford this child? Do I want this child? Do you want this child?) there ought to be an equal opportunity to opt out. As things stand there is not really an equal opportunity to opt out. Women can opt out via abortion, while men have no options. As such women hold all the cards on if the child gets born (which is fine). Fathers just have to shut up and live with her choice (financially). What I don't consider fine is that her independently made choice will impact the man financially for ~18 years. She gets an opportunity to opt out, so should he. The costs of raising a child should be deeply considered before you have one. If you can't afford it, don't do it, or at the very least, don't complain about not having money when having the kid was your own choice.

Almost every argument I hear against my position would be considered sexist if it were turned around and used against a woman in the case of abortion.

If your idea actually happened though I think the man would have to give up all rights regarding the child if he decided to opt out. There couldn't be any opting out but then still playing dad.

(21-08-2014 11:06 AM)cjlr Wrote:  There can never be an "equal opportunity to opt out". A man deciding to back out of a pregnancy he caused doesn't actually stop it from happening. It's fundamentally dissimilar to abortion in that respect.

One cannot avoid responsibility by changing one's mind after the fact. We don't accept that reasoning in any other aspect of law.

That doesn't count for adoption though (which actually works both ways). If both parents decide after the fact that they want to give up their rights to the child, and lose any financial responsibility, they can do that. If one parent wants to make that choice, then they cannot.

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21-08-2014, 11:19 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 11:15 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  If your idea actually happened though I think the man would have to give up all rights regarding the child if he decided to opt out. There couldn't be any opting out but then still playing dad.

Oh, definitely. Sorry, I should have made that more clear. The man opting out would mean opting out of fatherhood, i.e. opting out of being any part of the child's life.

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21-08-2014, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2014 11:23 AM by Hughsie.)
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
The problem with allowing guys to opt out though is that it would be difficult to draw the lines legally. It may well be open to abuse, or open the child up to uncertainty due to parents disputing these things and trying to work the system.

Like I said before, it's a complex topic for which I have no definite answer.

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21-08-2014, 11:31 AM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2014 11:36 AM by Antonis.)
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:39 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 07:44 AM)Antonis Wrote:  thanks for the advice but i am 17 Smile

Yeah so ?

So it means don't have a lot of sex yet, but yeah you right it doesnt matter!
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21-08-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 11:19 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  The problem with allowing guys to opt out though is that it would be difficult to draw the lines legally. It may well be open to abuse, or open the child up to uncertainty due to parents disputing these things and trying to work the system.

Like I said before, it's a complex topic for which I have no definite answer.
yes, I think you are right. If something like this ever were to be implemented (which it won't), it would need to be very very strict. I'm no legal expert, but I would expect a very tight opt-out period which required written declaration by the father of his decision to opt-out, possibly signed by both parties (or at least receipt acknowledgement from the woman). I think it would be fair that he is still made to pay for either the pregnancy or abortion procedure.

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