Should men be forced to pay child support?
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21-08-2014, 07:33 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2014 07:38 PM by Impulse.)
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 04:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 04:31 PM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  Sorry, but sex isn't potentially without consequences. If you're grown up enough to have sex you're grown up enough to accept responsibility for what happens.

So you are against abortion then? Cause if that is not a valid argument in that case why is it one in this?
No. The responsibilities for the man and woman are somewhat different as determined by anatomy. A possible consequence of sex is pregnancy. The woman alone suffers that part of the consequences. If the man and woman agree on what to do about it - abortion, adoption, marriage, joint financial responsibility - great there's no problem, but if they can't agree, the decision becomes the woman's because it's her body. But, in that case, neither is relieved of the responsibility for the consequences that they accepted by having sex - and apparently doing so without discussing the full consequences beforehand (since they disagree).

Having an abortion is not giving up responsibility. The choice of whether to have an abortion is part of the responsibility. Again, if the choice can be made jointly, then so much the better, but if not, then that responsibility falls on the woman. It's up to her what she chooses because it's her body. The man should know it's up to her what she chooses and he therefore accepts that when he chooses to have sex with her. After the pregnancy, if she chooses not to have an abortion against his wishes, accepting that is part of his pre-sex accepted responsibility. Because none of this should be any surprise to either party.

(21-08-2014 05:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I don't see any solution to this that does not encroach on one party or the other. However to pretend that the encroachment is not happening is disingenuous at best.
Both may have undesired consequences, but "encroached" implies against their will and that it's not.

Edit:
Fixed a quote tag.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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21-08-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 07:31 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Impulse, if we lived in an age where there were no condoms, day after pills, birth control, or abortion, then maybe your gambling analogy would be applicable.
Possible preventative measures... gamblers can go to addiction counseling, but it too might not work. Or they can tell their spouse to lock away the money and hide the account numbers, but they might search for and find them anyway. And, if they do take preventative measures, but still gamble and lose money, they still get the consequences.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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21-08-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 07:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 04:32 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  So you are against abortion then? Cause if that is not a valid argument in that case why is it one in this?
No. The responsibilities for the man and woman are somewhat different as determined by anatomy. A possible consequence of sex is pregnancy. The woman alone suffers that part of the consequences. If the man and woman agree on what to do about it - abortion, adoption, marriage, joint financial responsibility - great there's no problem, but if they can't agree, the decision becomes the woman's because it's her body. But, in that case, neither is relieved of the responsibility for the consequences that they accepted by having sex - and apparently doing so without discussing the full consequences beforehand (since they disagree).

Having an abortion is not giving up responsibility. The choice of whether to have an abortion is part of the responsibility. Again, if the choice can be made jointly, then so much the better, but if not, then that responsibility falls on the woman. It's up to her what she chooses because it's her body. The man should know it's up to her what she chooses and he therefore accepts that when he chooses to have sex with her. After the pregnancy, if she chooses not to have an abortion against his wishes, accepting that is part of his pre-sex accepted responsibility. Because none of this should be any surprise to either party.

(21-08-2014 05:07 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  [I don't see any solution to this that does not encroach on one party or the other. However to pretend that the encroachment is not happening is disingenuous at best.
Both may have undesired consequences, but "encroached" implies against their will and that it's not.

Sure it is, I can wear a condom and have her claim to be on the pill, I did my due diligence but no birth control is 100%. I can have stated before I never wanted a child but once an accident occurs only 1 of us has a choice and I would have to live with it regardless of what I want. How is that not an encroachment? As I said it is an unavoidable one as only 1 party can be given control and in this case the woman gets the nod due to cultural bias and history.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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21-08-2014, 07:45 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 07:37 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 07:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  No. The responsibilities for the man and woman are somewhat different as determined by anatomy. A possible consequence of sex is pregnancy. The woman alone suffers that part of the consequences. If the man and woman agree on what to do about it - abortion, adoption, marriage, joint financial responsibility - great there's no problem, but if they can't agree, the decision becomes the woman's because it's her body. But, in that case, neither is relieved of the responsibility for the consequences that they accepted by having sex - and apparently doing so without discussing the full consequences beforehand (since they disagree).

Having an abortion is not giving up responsibility. The choice of whether to have an abortion is part of the responsibility. Again, if the choice can be made jointly, then so much the better, but if not, then that responsibility falls on the woman. It's up to her what she chooses because it's her body. The man should know it's up to her what she chooses and he therefore accepts that when he chooses to have sex with her. After the pregnancy, if she chooses not to have an abortion against his wishes, accepting that is part of his pre-sex accepted responsibility. Because none of this should be any surprise to either party.

Both may have undesired consequences, but "encroached" implies against their will and that it's not.

Sure it is, I can wear a condom and have her claim to be on the pill, I did my due diligence but no birth control is 100%. I can have stated before I never wanted a child but once an accident occurs only 1 of us has a choice and I would have to live with it regardless of what I want. How is that not an encroachment? As I said it is an unavoidable one as only 1 party can be given control and in this case the woman gets the nod due to cultural bias and history.
Because, as you said, no birth control is 100%. So possible pregnancy is an assumed risk. And, after the accident, yes only one has the final choice, but that is known so it's part of the accepted responsibility.

That said, my arguments have been based upon two people having been honest up front about birth control and mutually agreeing to have sex. If the woman falsely claims to be on the pill, that's an encroachment, but the encroachment is the lying, not the pregnancy. The pregnancy could be viewed as a direct consequence of the lying, but I'm not sure because that was part of the assumed risk anyway. And, if you had worn a condemn too as in your example, then it certainly isn't completely a direct consequence of the lying.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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21-08-2014, 08:39 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
If a woman who'd get angry over being forced to have a baby she didn't want, and paying child support for it to the adopted family, can't understand why a man would get angry over having to pay child support for a baby he didn't want, she may lack the empathy one would hope to find in a mother Dodgy

If a man who is "too stupid" to use birth control deserves to pay child support, then a woman who doesn't make enough money on her own to support a child, but wants one anyway, should at least have it suggested to her that she take some math classes during the early months of her pregnancy!

I'll pay, but I'm going to be calling for a 3rd-party service to which to send the money, to make sure every drop goes to buying Pampers, Fruit Loops, and rent for the roof over the baby's head (50% of it! I'm not the only parent, remember! And I'm not the only one who could have picked up a biology text book to find out how badly a gigantic bulging of the area near my naval might fuck up my daily routine), and that not one red cent goes to mommy's spa treatment!
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I don't even have kids, lol Laugh out load Anyway Confused

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21-08-2014, 10:18 PM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2014 10:26 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 07:37 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 07:31 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Impulse, if we lived in an age where there were no condoms, day after pills, birth control, or abortion, then maybe your gambling analogy would be applicable.
Possible preventative measures... gamblers can go to addiction counseling, but it too might not work. Or they can tell their spouse to lock away the money and hide the account numbers, but they might search for and find them anyway. And, if they do take preventative measures, but still gamble and lose money, they still get the consequences.
You can continue with your analogy, but there is no gamblers equivalent to abortion.

We are at a technological/scientific/medical level where we don't just have to accept the "natural" consequences of our actions. We don't need to lay there and die when we get a serious sickness. We don't need to have a baby just because we got pregnant. There is no reason we should be held back by the natural consequences of our actions in this respect when we break past those consequences in so many others. And even in this, we have broken past the consequence in such ways as the morning after pill and abortion. There are clear options. The issue (to me) is once the pregnancy happens, there are no options for half the people on this planet (well that might not be accurate given the oppressive nature of many cultures...but you know what I mean).

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21-08-2014, 10:29 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:18 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 07:37 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Possible preventative measures... gamblers can go to addiction counseling, but it too might not work. Or they can tell their spouse to lock away the money and hide the account numbers, but they might search for and find them anyway. And, if they do take preventative measures, but still gamble and lose money, they still get the consequences.
You can continue with your analogy, but there is no gamblers equivalent to abortion.

We are at a technological/scientific/medical level where we don't just have to accept the "natural" consequences of our actions. We don't need to lay there and die when we get a serious sickness. We don't need to have a baby just because we got pregnant. There is no reason we should be held back by the natural consequences of our actions in this respect when we break past those consequences in so many others. And even in this, we have broken past the consequence in such ways as the morning after pill and abortion. There are clear options. The issue (to me) is once the pregnancy happens, there are no options for half the people on this planet (well that might not be accurate given the oppressive nature of many cultures...but you know what I mean).

The option suggested is the option to opt-out of responsibility. Not having options is not good. Having that option is not great either.

There is no perfectly equal solution here, because biology ain't equal.

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21-08-2014, 10:52 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The option suggested is the option to opt-out of responsibility. Not having options is not good. Having that option is not great either.
Unless you are a woman, right? Consider

Quote:There is no perfectly equal solution here, because biology ain't equal.
I'm curious, if babies developed in a detached egg sack rather than inside a woman, would you view this topic differently?

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22-08-2014, 01:00 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 07:13 AM)Antonis Wrote:  If a woman don't want the child and the man wants it she can get an abortion despite the mans wishes, but if the reverse thing happens he can't force her to get an abortion, and thats fine its her own body she can do what she wants, but the man then shouldn't be forced to pay child support for a kid he didn't want.

I tend to believe that each individual (man and woman) is responsible for the prevention of pregnancy. Yes?

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22-08-2014, 02:15 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 07:36 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Keep it in your pants, or wear protection.

You could say the same for abortion be illegal.
"women should keep in their pants or wear protection".

Holds the same amount of merit and isn't a good argument.
Protection isn't 100% safe and sex isn't some sacred Indian cow.

Quote:One cannot avoid responsibility by changing one's mind after the fact. We don't accept that reasoning in any other aspect of law.

Yes we do. Abortion.
A consequence of sex is you could get pregnant. Abortion eliminates (bad choice in words probably) that consequence.
Yes, you than have to live with had having an abortion but if you're a male and decide to not pay child support you have to live with the fact that you're not a father to your kid and all that jazz.

Your logic of "you don't get to opt out after the fact" can be used for anti-abortion.

Quote:That's entirely up to the woman. Women should have the right to do what they want with their bodies.

In a loose sort of way child support hinders a mans body too in some sense that he has to worker harder (as in go to his job for longer) to earn the same amount of money he would otherwise have.

Quote:For those who are too stupid to practice birth control in this day and age, there are consequences.

Can be said for anti-abortion.

Quote:When two people freely choose to have sex, they know the risks. They may or may not opt for protection but, either way, if a baby is born, they are both responsible for the well-being of that baby. If both aren't willing to accept that responsibility beforehand, then they shouldn't have sex. That's the reality that allows the responsibility to later be enforced regardless of the actual ethical conduct of either party. The man who says he doesn't want the responsibility doesn't get to be excused from his responsibility just because he wants to walk away from it.

Can be said for anti-abortion.

Quote:The woman is the one carrying the unborn baby. It's her body and she has the right to make the final decision about the abortion.

But the man has no right to his "body" (loose term) and his money that he physically worked for is taken away?

Quote:The man should have discussed all this with the woman before having sex so he should know how she feels about abortion before the sex.

Not practical or realistic.

Quote:He should also know that a woman may change her mind when an actual pregnancy may change things. If he doesn't know these things, it's his own fault for engaging in sex without finding out. Yes, the reality is, that happens a lot, but the point is the man has nothing solid to stand on if he allowed himself to get into the situation and then regrets it.

Same can be said for anti-abortion.

Quote:Well, he should have bagged it. Or gotten a vasectomy. Or not fucked her. It can be pretty easy to not have a child you don't want.
But.... I suppose in some circumstances there could be an argument here.

She should have kept her legs closed. Or gotten her tubes tied. Or not fucked him. It can be pretty easy to not have a child you don't want.

Anti-abortion.

Quote:Sorry, but sex isn't potentially without consequences. If you're grown up enough to have sex you're grown up enough to accept responsibility for what happens.

Can be said for anti-abortion.



Ah to be of the gay and not be faced with this issue. This is why parents should pray their children turn out gay.
Anywho, I think the dude should pay child support. I think it's such a widely accepted consequence in todays age and that if a dude knocks a girl up than tough titties, you knew the risks dude.

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