Should men be forced to pay child support?
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22-08-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:33 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  Hmm, this is a tricky one.

A point no-one has raised is adoption. If both parents decide they don't want to be responsible for a child they can put them up for adoption and have no more responsibility toward them. However, if one parent wants to put them up for adoption, and the other wants to keep them, then both parents still have to finance the child. Is this an inconsistency, I'm not sure.

I agree with the point about pregnancy/abortion. I think it's defo unfair on men that they have no say over an abortion and the consequences of having/not having them. However, this unfairness hasn't come about because of human choice, but because of human biology that is beyond our control. Does that mean we shouldn't try and affect it? Again, I'm not sure.

I don't know if I could say I have any definitive views on this. It's a very interesting topic though.

You gotta respect a thoughtful "I don't know".

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22-08-2014, 02:09 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
I am on a tablet and only have a few minutes to be online today...so this will be short....or not...

My reason for asking about if your stance would change if the baby was formed in an external sack rather than inside a woman was (while admittedly not fully thought out at the time) to check if your reasoning behind abortion had more to do with a a woman's sovereignty over her body, or her sovereignty over the rest of her life. My main reason for supporting abortion is that i fully support a person to have the ability to choose their future, rather than be trapped because of an accident. A woman's sovereignty over her body is a close second to this, and really is a smaller part of just allowing her to choose her future.

As such, my views on abortion or child support would not change if potential humans developed externally. To me it is more about having control over your life...having control over your own body is important, but that isn't usually the "reason" (afaik) for getting an abortion. It seems to instead be the excuse/rule used to uphold your right to live the life you want.

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22-08-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 11:30 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Also, are you saying that men have no feels when it comes to abortion?

No I'm not, and I'll thank you not to invent arguments I wouldn't make then accuse me of making them.

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22-08-2014, 04:55 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 07:13 AM)Antonis Wrote:  If a woman don't want the child and the man wants it she can get an abortion despite the mans wishes, but if the reverse thing happens he can't force her to get an abortion, and thats fine its her own body she can do what she wants, but the man then shouldn't be forced to pay child support for a kid he didn't want.

You know there's these things called condoms and birth control that keep arguments like these from occurring. Drinking Beverage

In the end, it isn't about who wanted the baby. It's about the baby.

Quote:If a woman don't want the child and the man wants it she can get an abortion despite the mans wishes

Maybe health factors are involved, or maybe she's too young, or maybe you're just a prick and she doesn't want to carry around your parasite for 9 months.

Quote:if the reverse thing happens he can't force her to get an abortion, and thats fine its her own body she can do what she wants, but the man then shouldn't be forced to pay child support for a kid he didn't want

Well maybe you should've pulled out sooner, and maybe you shouldn't think like such a dick. Abortions are nothing to some people, but really hard and emotional experiences for others.
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22-08-2014, 08:22 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
You know, reading this thread I've just come to a conclusion that I never thought I'd come to. I will never willingly pay child-support if I'm ever in such a situation.

Wanna know why?

Because I would never refuse to provide care for a child I created. Child support is only to be paid when one parent has custody more than 50% of the time. Then the other parent should pay child support (this I agree with to an extent). However, if I was ever in this situation I would fight tooth and nail for custody for my kids at least 50% of the time, if not full custody. So the only way I would end up in a situation where I was expected to pay child support would be if the mother of my kid/s had fought to have them more than 50% of the time, and some bullshit sexist court had granted her that. So then, I would be expected to pay for her to raise my kids, away from me, whilst I was being unfairly denied the right to partly raise them myself and thus take the financial strain off that way. Yeah, not gonna happen. At all.

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22-08-2014, 09:43 PM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Quote:Yes, the women accepts the risk of pregnancy if that's what you mean and she accepts that she will need to choice whether to have the baby or abort.

I don't see this as any different to a man needing to choice to support that baby or not.
Both are life altering choices and I don't view one as a higher priority than the other because I'm not sexiest.

Quote:If it's a strawman, then I misunderstood you, in which case I have no idea what you're trying to say.

I meant that you were trying to make me come across as some sort of sexiest pig which I wasn't and aren't.

Quote:It has to do with two people accepting responsibility and having somewhat different choices in that responsibility due to biological differences.

Again, yes there are different consequences (due to biology) but both are life altering and I don't see why one side gets to have that choice and the other doesn't.

Quote:An abortion is a medical procedure.

So is getting a tooth filling. So is getting a double heart bypass.
There are different degrees of "medical procedure" and waving those words around isn't a trump card.

Quote:Anti-abortion is a distinctly separate subject and you're attempts to equate the two don't make it fact.

It's the exact same subject. Both are about having control of ones consequences.

Quote:Accepting responsibility doesn't necessarily mean having the child. If the woman chooses to have an abortion, that is her way of accepting responsibility. In fact, she has no choice but to accept responsibility, unlike the man.

He also has to live with the fact that he could have had a child.
Yes it's harder on the women but don't mistake women as the only gender with feels. Also, the "medical procedure", again, is hardly a double heart bypass.

Quote:That only makes your analogy worse, not better.

No it doesn't.

Quote:No one is forcing you to have spontaneous sex

Can be said for anti-abortion too.

Quote:The notion that the woman would be forcing financial burdens on a man that freely chose sex while knowing all the risks frankly astounds me.

Yet abortion is ok? Because it's perfectly fine to force something on a man but when it's forced on a women it's a big no-no?

Quote:No I'm not, and I'll thank you not to invent arguments I wouldn't make then accuse me of making them.

Likewise.

Quote:You know there's these things called condoms and birth control that keep arguments like these from occurring. Drinking Beverage

Not 100% safe.

Quote:In the end, it isn't about who wanted the baby. It's about the baby.

Can be said for anti-abortion.
Also goes back to WC's argument.

Quote:Maybe health factors are involved, or maybe she's too young, or maybe you're just a prick and she doesn't want to carry around your parasite for 9 months.

So when it's "his" it's a parasite, but when it's "hers" it's "pay your fucking child support for your baby asshole!"?

Quote:Because I would never refuse to provide care for a child I created.

Aren't you an angel.
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23-08-2014, 09:58 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2014 10:17 AM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(22-08-2014 02:09 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I am on a tablet and only have a few minutes to be online today...so this will be short....or not...

My reason for asking about if your stance would change if the baby was formed in an external sack rather than inside a woman was (while admittedly not fully thought out at the time) to check if your reasoning behind abortion had more to do with a a woman's sovereignty over her body, or her sovereignty over the rest of her life. My main reason for supporting abortion is that i fully support a person to have the ability to choose their future, rather than be trapped because of an accident. A woman's sovereignty over her body is a close second to this, and really is a smaller part of just allowing her to choose her future.

As such, my views on abortion or child support would not change if potential humans developed externally. To me it is more about having control over your life...having control over your own body is important, but that isn't usually the "reason" (afaik) for getting an abortion. It seems to instead be the excuse/rule used to uphold your right to live the life you want.

I thought you'd asked that question to ascertain our opinions on whether or not a woman, who knew full well what might accidentally be created, when she decided to have sex, should be forced to pay child support on a baby she doesn't want to raise, & that doesn't require her body to mature, because the father wanted to keep what was initially a collection of cells small enough to fit into a Petri dish around long enough for it to grow a mouth that needs feeding.
And possibly whether or not the woman should be considered a scumbag deadbeat mother for being a little resentful over having to do so.
But the Gules can be slow witted, sometimes. Tongue

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23-08-2014, 11:50 AM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2014 12:10 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
Dunno about other States, but in The Peoples Republic of Maryland if a man raising a kid finds out later that the kid is not his and gets a divorce he's still on the hook for child support. 'Cause that's just how we roll comrade bitches.

(22-08-2014 08:22 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Because I would never refuse to provide care for a child I created.

Aren't you required to ask the NHS for special dispensation before you reproduce because of your genetic ... Consider ... anomalies?

#sigh
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25-08-2014, 06:34 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:14 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  
(21-08-2014 09:44 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  If you support a woman's right to choose (I do) but don't support the equivalent of that for men then you are a hypocrite and inconsistent.

I hate to have to explain this to you, but men can't get pregnant, therefore there is no equivalent. But men get to choose, they choose whether or not they have sex. That decision comes with responsibilities. If it leads to a pregnancy, you can't just walk away unless you want to be considered a shitty little coward.

I think this really shows the hypocrisy. If I said that women get to choose by deciding whether or not to have have sex, you would call me out on belonging in the 1950's and rightfully so, but you then go and say that the only choice men get is whether or not to have sex.

Also, I'm not a misogynist. You are using that as a meaningless word with which to smear me, and you know it.

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25-08-2014, 06:40 AM
RE: Should men be forced to pay child support?
(21-08-2014 10:45 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  Here's some of the main points to consider:

Men are almost always entirely consensual about the sex they have with women.

No one should have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body.

A child deserves, at the very least, the best opportunities those that created him or her can offer them.

Everyone is responsible for the consequences of their actions.

Anyone disagree?

Considering the huge lack of studies concerning male rape victims, you cannot make this statement.

No one should have the right to tell anyone what to do with his body.

Then I suppose you are anti-abortion?

More or less.

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