Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
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17-02-2013, 10:37 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 10:08 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "if with all the freedoms and liberties I have I am a slave, what then
are those who still are and have been without liberty, freedom in fact
have been nothing more than property?"

They're slaves too. The definition of slavery isn't judged by degree any more than the definition of rape is judged by degree. Would you call a woman who had only been digitally penetrated by her attacker not raped? Is she belittling the plight of the woman who was sodomized by three men and beaten half to death just because she too calls herself a rape victim?

I appreciate your civility, btw. I'm accustomed to being berated for calling things by their proper names by people who call pro choice advocates baby killers or by those who accuse capitalists of existing for the sole purpose of starving poor people. Because, well, I'm the one who's exaggerating. Huh


It really boggles my mind how logic gets tossed out the window when the subject of the state or the family comes up. And among atheists no less... honor thy mother and thy father (whether they earn it or not) doesn't seem to go away with rational thinking about gods. And to see them during the pledge of allegiance to their particular country (which is a mere accident of birth) they look like they're in church. WTF???
Again your not a million miles from a reasonable response, as to digitally penetrated I think that is sexual assault rather than rape, but not being an expert on the subject I'm just guessing really.

You have not been rude to me, so I do not feel compelled to call you a fucktard and wish for you to catch fire, but dont let me stop you if you want to.

I'm kinda with you on the whole butchering of the english language to keep asshole liberals happy tho. Even though I'm an asshole liberal myself, I find the idea of being happy somewhat distasteful and view those who manage to be even a little bit happy as apologists for the worst transgressions imaginable.

Lastly, logic and atheism are far from being some tandem concept. There are plenty of irrational atheists, but what ever I'll leave that non sequitur hanging.

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17-02-2013, 10:55 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
Not using logic is one of the most common arguments atheists use against the religious, so I don't think asking the same of them in the realm of the state is a non sequitur.
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17-02-2013, 11:06 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 10:55 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Not using logic is one of the most common arguments atheists use against the religious, so I don't think asking the same of them in the realm of the state is a non sequitur.
Well maybe, but its the same people that will say without a hint of irony that all religious people generalise.

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17-02-2013, 11:15 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
A lot of them, yes.
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18-02-2013, 08:15 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 03:43 PM)Humakt Wrote:  
(10-02-2013 07:40 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  As to the phrase "no taxation without representation" this has never been anything apart from propaganda, at no point and no where has the paying of tax equaled the right to vote. Did a newly independent America extend the right to vote to traders from distant lands when they payed duties on their imports, has any state done such a thing.
Let me instead ask the OP, these questions:

If I travel as a tourist to your country and spend money there and by so doing pay taxes, should I be afforded the right to vote in your state?
If I travel to your state should I be exempt from paying any form of tax, because I am not afforded the right to vote?
VAT' are regressive taxes and would disappear in my system. They are anti-poor and allow for the wealthy to pay less as % of earnings than the poor. No. Non-citizens should not be allowed to vote.
In a world of VAT's, it is a country capitalizing on tourists and is a cost of being a tourist.
Your history was not too bad but this "As to the phrase "no taxation without representation" this has never been anything apart from propaganda, at no point and nowhere has the paying of tax equaled the right to vote." is not accurate.
In the U S for example, I am told that in the beginning white males were basically the only ones to vote.
How can you have representation without taxation? Who would pay for the government to exist?
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DL
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18-02-2013, 08:19 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 04:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "The first duty of the citizen then as it is now is protection of the state."

If a man is to be treated as a slave, why then make up a special word for slavery?


Oh and, the ruling class in Athens also didn't allow the eunuchs they castrated and buttfucked the right to vote. Thumbsup
I agree. It is only political correctness that has relabelled those at the base of our demographic pyramid.
That aside. Slaves should not vote.
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DL
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18-02-2013, 08:22 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 04:15 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(17-02-2013 12:25 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Define free?
Try Webster.
Regards
DL

Your entire argument was incorrect, invalid, unsound, aka complete fucking bullshit. You would have had to define in what regard "services" are "never free". Free from what (e.g. coercion, control, energy, action, pain)? Even if you could do that in a way that would make sense, however, your argument would still have been complete bullshit. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.
I will really take this seriously from one who cannot equate free and services to money when we are talking about the economy.
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DL
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18-02-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
"Slaves should not vote."

That settles it then. No one, whether he pays taxes or not, is allowed to vote.

Jeeze. That could have been settled on the first page. Big Grin
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18-02-2013, 11:08 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(18-02-2013 08:22 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I will really take this seriously from one who cannot equate free and services to money when we are talking about the economy.
Regards
DL

Your argument was shit, regardless of that. Why do you insist on going around believing shit, that is just incorrect?

Services do not always require money, and also, we were not talking capitalistic, market economics, we were talking about government, voting and taxation.

Regardless, of all of that, your argument still was complete bullshit.

Do you just read and respond to, what it is that benefits your own, incorrect views?

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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18-02-2013, 11:12 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 06:46 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "Also, if you raise kids "in a peaceful and empathetic manner", you will
get a whole bunch of greedy douchebags running around with a sense of
entitlement, and that is exactly the problem with parenting, and are the
results of parenting, today."

That's not at all true. Children mimic the behavior they're surrounded with. If they're raised by greedy douchebags who don't hit them, they'll be greedy douchebags who don't hit people. Of course, we don't turn out exactly like our parents but on balance most people are very much like their parents and most people hold the same principles or beliefs their parents hold. Evidence shows that kids who are raised peacefully are much more respectful, much less inclined toward violence and much less plagued with mental disorders than are kids raised "traditionally". You can choose not to look at the evidence and you can choose to attack it. But you can't change a thing by doing so.

"Some of the best scientists, engineers, mathematicians and philosophers
of that time, were from those parts of the world and came West during
those times."

Some people live through house fires. Does that mean people can't die in house fires?

"However, those societies could most likely, maybe minus some of the harshness, teach us a lot about how to raise children."

What parts do we get rid of and what parts do we keep?I'm thinking we should nix the infanticiding of girls, since that's probably more on the violent side. Probably shouldn't infanticide the boys with birth defects either. Of course, we could wind up with too many girls, which is what would have happened then if they didn't get rid of enough of them. Should we keep swaddling and hanging infants in bags on a door or tree while we work? That'll teach em not to squirm around too much, eh? Oh and, even if we stop hanging them in bags, we should definitely not bath them more than once a week or so. Except in cold water. Ice cold baths strengthen the integrity of a six month old. But then again, being made to lie in one's own urine & feces for weeks at a time is quite the humbling experience, don't you think? Daily beatings should definitely be kept, as this ensures that the infant will respect the parent. Plus, while they're being beaten, they can learn virtue from the parent. Manual labor is great for a sense of moral duty so I think we should keep that whole sending them to labor in another man's house when they're seven thing. Plus, you can trade kids with friends who have them too. We should also stop teaching girls so much. Have you seen how uppity these "smart" bitches are nowadays? Barely know their fucking place in the home...

Yeah, when one says "minus..harshness", we throw in all of the violence and extreme behavior, that any reasonable person could have inferred, the other was not referring to. We are just going to skip explanations and go straight to how what we want the meaning to be.

According to you "people can't die in house fires". Who was the one that generalized their culture of parenting? And don't you think the same point would apply there? What do you think I was attempting to do?

We could argue about parenting, but parents, along with teachers, have the biggest influence, in terms of authority and presenting children with information, knowledge and education about what is correct and incorrect behavior, how you should treat other people, how to behave respectfully and what should be valued. That doesn't have anything to do with their views, there will be other cultural, mainly social, through interaction with peers, that will have influences on that.

Also, it's only a correlation between parents views and kids views. If you raise your kid conservatively, that doesn't mean that kid will grow up that way. If they move out of their culture, and realize that blacks aren't lazy, ignorant, pieces of shit, that gays aren't unscrupulous, flaming devils and that poor people don't have anything because they don't deserve it, have a sense of entitlement and don't want to work, those views will disappear, and they will move to the left.

Then again, what do I know, since me thinking that "peace" and "empathy" aren't good terms to use, to describe a parent's goal, implies that you should beat your kids halfway to death, if they piss their pants.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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