Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
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11-02-2013, 12:49 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
Who cares about votes, if the interest groups decide who gets money on campaign? It's the weapon lobby, religious lobby, oil lobby, pharmaceutical lobby and so on, they decide the candidate roster. It's true they're not omnipotent, they just spent lots of money on Mitt Romney and still lost. But again, Obama isn't very clean either - he served the weapon lobby just as well as GWB.

The voter question will only make sense if all the elections are done in a transparent, limited way, when both candidates get equal chance to present equal amount of information about themselves, regardless of how much money they have. But then, elections would be
- boring
- and anyone could enter them. Not a single million dollars needed, neither a rich family history.

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11-02-2013, 05:24 PM (This post was last modified: 11-02-2013 10:23 PM by Zat.)
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(10-02-2013 07:40 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  There are two types of citizens. The taxpayer and the taxtaker.
...
It's a bit too simplistic, don't you think?

There are many other kinds of citizens with something to do with taxes:

There is the tax avoider.

That includes a huge portion of the richest strata.

Then there is the tax-waster.

The kind that spends taxes on stupid, destructive, instantly obsolete weaponry, good for only 2 things: blow useful things up and blow themselves up, so more will be needed. (and the potholes stay unfixed and the bridges decay and ...)

Let's not forget the tax-imposer. The geniuses who find new and new ways to squeeze the last penny out of hard working people, providing a continuous, ongoing funnel from productive people's pockets to parasitic pockets.

Then there are the tax-shelterers -- who supply the tax-avoiders with safer and safer tax-heavens where they can hide their ill-gotten gains.

Then, there are the tax-lawyers, tax-accountants, who pull the magic numbers out if rich people's hats, so they can get away with their lies and cheats.

Finally, the noble and brave tax-collectors of Internal Revenue Service who go after struggling small businessmen, bankrupt citizens, desperate losers who still have a few pennies that can be confiscated, while they let the Ponzi-schemers thrive year after year (ever heard of Bernard Madoff?)
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11-02-2013, 07:02 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(10-02-2013 07:40 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?

When Socrates and his friends were talking of voters, they were talking of land owners. In today’s terms, that means, ---- taxpayer. The core of democracy.

There are two types of citizens. The taxpayer and the taxtaker.

Once the taxpayer hands over his wealth, he loses control of where it is spent.

This is counter to the taxpayer’s wishes.

Why do taxpayers allow this situation and defer their right to spend their wealth to others?

If taxtakers had done a good job with that wealth, I do not think any would complain. That is not the case.

Should those who pay the way of our society be the ones who decide where our wealth is spent?

Since the right to do so is tied to our vote, should only taxpayers be allowed to vote on spending issues?

Regards
DL
You want me to pay more for the illusion of democracy?

Keep your voting. It achieves nothing anyway.

You're never going to say the things you want to say.
The things you want to change will usually stay that way
The promises you break outweigh the ones you keep.
Paint upon the wall for the hundredth time.

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11-02-2013, 10:14 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(11-02-2013 11:25 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(10-02-2013 08:00 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Under 18's that work pay taxes and yet are unable to vote.

Taxation without repersentation anyone?
They are generally speaking represented by their parent (s).
Horse shit. My parents political view points differ greatly from mine, especially my dad who ahtes politics with a passion and has never voted his whole life.

Taxation without repersentation was apparently the reason why America broke free from the British in the first place. And yet there they are taxing people like 17 year olds with part time jobs without allowing them to voice their opinion of how the country should be run and thus that money spent. Taxation, without repersentation.

I'm not saying other countries are any better. All western countries do it.

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11-02-2013, 10:35 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
Poll taxes were one way former confederate states minimized black people voting. I'd rather it be the case that more people pay taxes.

Others mentioned there are a variety of taxes the poor pay--in the US as in many placed, that is of course true. However the US also has the 'earned income tax credit' that essentially rebates many of those taxes (they have a negative income tax rate). A tax system that encourages the electorate to demand government spending without any obligation to paying for the demanded expenses is missing a critical check against government excess.
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11-02-2013, 10:37 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(11-02-2013 10:14 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 11:25 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  They are generally speaking represented by their parent (s).
Horse shit. My parents political view points differ greatly from mine, especially my dad who ahtes politics with a passion and has never voted his whole life.

Taxation without repersentation was apparently the reason why America broke free from the British in the first place. And yet there they are taxing people like 17 year olds with part time jobs without allowing them to voice their opinion of how the country should be run and thus that money spent. Taxation, without repersentation.

I'm not saying other countries are any better. All western countries do it.

But according to the law children are under the direction of their parents. Most children don't pay taxes, nor are they required to file personal income tax before they're 18. Between the ages 18-24 parents can still claim them as dependent provided they are providing for them -- even if the child has a job. Children cannot be sued or enter into contracts. There are no taxation without representation issues. Not all 17 year olds have jobs.


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11-02-2013, 10:40 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(11-02-2013 10:14 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 11:25 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  They are generally speaking represented by their parent (s).
Horse shit. My parents political view points differ greatly from mine, especially my dad who ahtes politics with a passion and has never voted his whole life.

Taxation without repersentation was apparently the reason why America broke free from the British in the first place. And yet there they are taxing people like 17 year olds with part time jobs without allowing them to voice their opinion of how the country should be run and thus that money spent. Taxation, without repersentation.

I'm not saying other countries are any better. All western countries do it.
Well, earmuffs, if your politics really are that different than your parents' politics, you are the minority. Politics shares that characteristic with religion.
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12-02-2013, 04:48 AM
Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
Leaving the fact that money and so taxed are just made up concepts, and the fact that all men are created equal, if we accept the fact that paying tax somehow makes the person more worthwhile to society (ie they get the privilege to vote) then surely it follows the people that pay more tax should get more votes than other lower taxpayers and so control the political system and eventually who can pay taxes to keep themselves in power.
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12-02-2013, 05:22 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(11-02-2013 10:37 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 10:14 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Horse shit. My parents political view points differ greatly from mine, especially my dad who ahtes politics with a passion and has never voted his whole life.

Taxation without repersentation was apparently the reason why America broke free from the British in the first place. And yet there they are taxing people like 17 year olds with part time jobs without allowing them to voice their opinion of how the country should be run and thus that money spent. Taxation, without repersentation.

I'm not saying other countries are any better. All western countries do it.

But according to the law children are under the direction of their parents. Most children don't pay taxes, nor are they required to file personal income tax before they're 18. Between the ages 18-24 parents can still claim them as dependent provided they are providing for them -- even if the child has a job. Children cannot be sued or enter into contracts. There are no taxation without representation issues. Not all 17 year olds have jobs.
Income tax is what I was referring to mostly. Do under 18's not have to pay income tax? they do here.
The fact they can't be sued or enter contracts is irrelevent.
But I can see a point about being under parents "control", so yeah that's fair enough.

Quote:Well, earmuffs, if your politics really are that different than your
parents' politics, you are the minority. Politics shares that
characteristic with religion.

I dunno, young people tend to be more liberal where as old people (30+) tend to be more conservative.

Quote:Leaving the fact that money and so taxed are just made up concepts, and the fact that all men are created equal

Communists.. just don't get it.

Money isn't a made up concept. Money is tangable. Money is a value system.
The fact of life is that things have different values. I agree humans are all of equal value in themselves, BUT their actions are not all equal. ie: I work 15hours a week packing cheese (just an example) would be considered less value then someone that packed cheese for 30hours.
An hourly wage would then be the way that value is placed on this. So the other person would get twice the money as me because they did twice the work.



Because money (a measurment of value) does not apply to people, but rather just their actions (ie: I could go to work today and get paid or I could just stay in bed and I wouldn't be paid), your point is moot.

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12-02-2013, 05:29 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2013 05:33 AM by Zat.)
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
On second thought: we are ALL taxpayers.

We pay through the nose, as soon as old enough to have a paper route.

Paying monetary taxes is just one form of contribution to society.

Not every contribution is measured by money.

Whenever you cook a meal for your family, bandage a scraped knee, help your neighbor move a heavy load, fix the bicycle of the kid across the street, write a letter to the editor, look in on an old lady living alone, once in a while,...we all contribute all the time.

We all should have a say in the direction our country is taking.

And, the kind of contributions I mentioned are all obviously POSITIVE contribution.

Contribution by money, on the other hand is often questionable.

How did he or she acquired that money? Was it a reward for positive contribution or it was stolen, was it a payment for bribery, blackmail, destruction of a competitor,...?

How will the money he paid be used? Will it pay for child care workers or new weapon systems?

See what I mean? Money is a murky kind of animal, you just can't know how it is going to be used.

That is why I never give money to charity because I don't know whose pocket it will end up in. I get involved in local charity, where I can be sure that my efforts are not wasted but is actually, for sure, 100% benefiting someone.

In our money-worshipping culture, however money talks and everyone else just should shut up and get out of the way of those who have the most of it, regardless how they acquired it.
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