Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
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15-02-2013, 09:36 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(15-02-2013 09:20 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(15-02-2013 05:06 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  The hard part is coming up with the least exploitable system possible.

No, it's not. That's the easy part. The hard part is transitioning society. Any random person can throw out an idea of a utopia, the hard part is finding out how to get the people in a society, successfully, from point A to point B.


Alright, *shrugs*

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17-02-2013, 08:54 AM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2013 09:01 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(15-02-2013 05:06 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Have you been watching the Zeitgeist/Venus project movies again?

Clearly you don't understand that no matter what the system is people with find a way to exploit it and use it for their own benefit. If the machine is delegating the job, then all you'd need to do is form a group of interpreters. That group would speak for the machine, thus gaining absolute power.

The hard part is coming up with the least exploitable system possible.
I thought I just did. A system that motivates people in other ways than fear and greed. Fear and greed are forces that will eventually wear out any system in which they're used. The system does not matter, it just has to do rational distribution and it has to run on the motivation of creative fun/self-realization, all else delegated to machines.

What you didn't notice is, that when you have a system that runs on creative fun, then gaining absolute power is A CHORE! It's not creative and not fun. Therefore, it's not motivating. People will have a completely different set of values. Your concern about power and misuse comes from the old premises of fear and greed, on scarcity, marketing and material insecurity.

As TrulyX said, the transition is the hard part. I think it might have something to do with
- citizen activism, lots of people getting beaten and tear-gassed by their own policemen, for no reason other than standing too close to each other.
- direct democracy - referendum, plebiscit, immediate repeal of politicians in referendum
- transparency of government
- constitution-based obligatory balanced state budget
- interest-free economy, practically constant supply of money, ban of banking industry and erasing debts
- sharing and providing basic needs and resources

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17-02-2013, 09:16 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(15-02-2013 02:31 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(15-02-2013 02:21 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The forces of evolution cannot be stopped.
...
Yes, they can! Yes

I am sure that the "forces of evolution" is a euphemism for the bastards holding the money bags and holding up everybody else like common pirates.

Every now and then we have a revolution and cut off their heads.

Then they are stopped for a while until the next crop of parasites grow up. Evil_monster
As I said and you confirmed. The forces of evolution cannot be stopped.
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DL
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17-02-2013, 09:20 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(15-02-2013 05:23 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-02-2013 02:21 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The forces of evolution cannot be stopped. The survival of the less fit will always be harder than of the fittest. That is why we have safety nets.

My concern is the right of those who pay for our systems and keep the country going to be able to afford that safety net.
The right of taxpayers. They pay for the systems and have a right to decide what they pay They exercise that right with their vote. Those who do not pay for a system have no right to tell it what to do with a vote.

Regards
DL
You don't seem to understand what a right is... unless you would be clarified to mean. YOU think they don't DESERVE a right.

All U.S. citizens over 18 who fit the other qualifies, like not being a felon, have the right to vote. It's not a constitutional right in it's original concept but with the amendments ratified, it's been made clear to state that.

Again, you ignore the concept of answering who you think these people not paying taxes are... Even Welfare recipients pay sales taxes. If you mean just income tax, say income tax; there are those in welfare-work programs though who do also pay income tax. Is that what you require to vote, how much is necessary, any payment?

And what would be the measure, how long of a range would someone have been on welfare for their vote to be taken away? If they just lost their job in the summer and began getting welfare before the november election would they be invalidated? Or do they need to be without an income tax for the prior year for their vote to be stripped the next year?
My basic view is what the law of the land is; no taxation without representation. In effect that says that if
you do not pay taxes or are a taxtaker you have not earned representation through a vote. IOW, if you do not pay
for representation, you do not get it.


The logic is clear.
Government is a service and services are never free. The logic is thus sound.


Tax is a payment but do not fixate just on that.
Payment can be made in various ways so do not think I am going after the poor. In the case of Vets,
representation can be earned by serving to protect the country. Those who sometimes pay taxes and at other times take taxes would have to be looked at
once a standard is set. If a person pays 15 years out of 20 for instance, he would vote. Someone who only paid 5 years out of 20 and was on the dole or
public purse for 15 may not get a vote.


The point is that when more and more fall into the poor categories, their vote can and is bought by the
unscrupulous politicians who are elected by promises of a raise in welfare checks.


The rich are getting richer and the poor better off and the middle is squeezed by both side and any
election basically becomes a war against the middle thanks to the fact that politicians are owned by the rich.


This is unjust and unsustainable and must end.

Regards
DL
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17-02-2013, 09:23 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 09:16 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  As I said and you confirmed. The forces of evolution cannot be stopped.
The three good decades after WW2 in Canada were a nice respite and I enjoyed them immensely.

Now we have a few bastards who will soon go too far, as usual, and then we will cut their heads off again.

Who says there is a perfect world?

I take the lulls of sanity, as they come along! Big Grin
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17-02-2013, 09:27 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 09:23 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(17-02-2013 09:16 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  As I said and you confirmed. The forces of evolution cannot be stopped.
The three good decades after WW2 in Canada were a nice respite and I enjoyed them immensely.

Now we have a few bastards who will soon go too far, as usual, and then we will cut their heads off again.

Who says there is a perfect world?

I take the lulls of sanity, as they come along! Big Grin
That's the way. Enjoy the boon and live through the bust.
Regards
DL
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17-02-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 08:54 AM)Luminon Wrote:  As TrulyX said, the transition is the hard part. I think it might have something to do with

That was more of a Marxist rant, against the idea of a resource-based economy, which seemed to pay little to no attention, from what I could tell, about how, or what, would get us from what we have now, to the end goal. We aren't at a shortage of good ideas.

Also, we don't have flying cars that run on dog farts. Certain people have power and control over resources, and they aren't going to, just randomly, decide that sharing would be a good idea. If they were going to come to that conclusion on their own, I think it would be reasonable to assume, they would have by now, and we would all, already, live in the idealist, anarchist, communist, dream world, if not just happy socialists.

So, the transitional stage is what is important. You would either assume that it would be through a governmental, political process, or some sort of violent, revolutionary war, that would not promise favorable results, as history has shown. Ruling out the latter, the goal would have to be toward getting the wheels rolling on the political process, realizing that if you're not going to violently overthrow a government, you have to, at least currently, work with what you have.

I think we all realize that education, information and exposure, are the keys to get people to lean toward progressive/liberal ideas and to the left, and those are really the keys to get society in general, democracy in general, working. That would bring up the hard part of actually getting enough political power to influences people's education, and getting enough exposure to effect people's views with objective information, and get them introduced and exposed to good ideas and the reality of certain situations.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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17-02-2013, 10:10 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 09:20 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The logic is clear.
Government is a service and services are never free. The logic is thus sound.

You didn't properly define what is meant by free, so the logic wouldn't even be valid, even if you didn't inaccurately represent the meaning of government as a service, let alone sound.

Why do you keep posting that same shit, over and over?

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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17-02-2013, 11:42 AM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
"A system that motivates people in other ways than fear and greed."

People aren't motivated by a system, they're motivated by what they learn as children. The system of social organization a society has is the result of its most prominent child rearing techniques. Thus, if you want a more peaceful and empathetic society, you must raise children in a peaceful and empathetic manner.


This is pretty evident when you look at parenting in Austria & Germany during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In simple terms, what was considered "good" parenting in that time would be a leading news story of abuse, neglect, and abandonment today. If there can be any good that came from WWII and the atrocities it brought, it's that German and Austrian parenting techniques changed dramatically. Compared with US parenting today, there's a lot less authoritarianism, superstition & subjugation of children and not coincidentally, Germany isn't going around bombing people for no apparent reason.

So in the end, political action won't work, violent revolution won't work, eliminating property won't work, banning things won't work..... forcing people to do things and/or using violence simply won't work. It's all been tried before and it has always failed.

People in America waged a violent, revolutionary war (ostensibly) over 5% taxation. They got the smallest government the world had ever known out of it then and what do we have less than 300 year later? The largest, most intrusive, most power mad government the world has ever known.
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17-02-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 10:10 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(17-02-2013 09:20 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The logic is clear.
Government is a service and services are never free. The logic is thus sound.

You didn't properly define what is meant by free, so the logic wouldn't even be valid, even if you didn't inaccurately represent the meaning of government as a service, let alone sound.

Why do you keep posting that same shit, over and over?
Define free?
Try Webster.
Regards
DL
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