Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
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17-02-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(10-02-2013 07:40 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?

When Socrates and his friends were talking of voters, they were talking of land owners. In today’s terms, that means, ---- taxpayer. The core of democracy.

There are two types of citizens. The taxpayer and the taxtaker.

Once the taxpayer hands over his wealth, he loses control of where it is spent.

This is counter to the taxpayer’s wishes.

Why do taxpayers allow this situation and defer their right to spend their wealth to others?

If taxtakers had done a good job with that wealth, I do not think any would complain. That is not the case.

Should those who pay the way of our society be the ones who decide where our wealth is spent?

Since the right to do so is tied to our vote, should only taxpayers be allowed to vote on spending issues?

Regards
DL
It is not the paying of taxes that made an athenian a citizen, but the completion of military training. The first duty of the citizen then as it is now is protection of the state. Taxes are not linked to citizenship, the state levies taxes against citizen and non citizen alike.


Citizenship in Athens

Only adult male Athenian citizens who had completed their military training as ephebes had the right to vote in Athens. The percentage of the population that actually participated in the government was about 20%.[citation needed] This excluded a majority of the population, namely slaves, freed slaves, children, women and metics.[clarification needed]
The women had limited rights and privileges and were not really
considered citizens. They had restricted movement in public and were
very segregated from the men.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy
As to the phrase "no taxation without representation" this has never been anything apart from propaganda, at no point and no where has the paying of tax equaled the right to vote. Did a newly independent America extend the right to vote to traders from distant lands when they payed duties on their imports, has any state done such a thing.
Let me instead ask the OP, these questions:

If I travel as a tourist to your country and spend money there and by so doing pay taxes, should I be afforded the right to vote in your state?
If I travel to your state should I be exempt from paying any form of tax, because I am not afforded the right to vote?

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17-02-2013, 04:04 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
"The first duty of the citizen then as it is now is protection of the state."

If a man is to be treated as a slave, why then make up a special word for slavery?


Oh and, the ruling class in Athens also didn't allow the eunuchs they castrated and buttfucked the right to vote. Thumbsup
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17-02-2013, 04:15 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 12:25 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Define free?
Try Webster.
Regards
DL

Your entire argument was incorrect, invalid, unsound, aka complete fucking bullshit. You would have had to define in what regard "services" are "never free". Free from what (e.g. coercion, control, energy, action, pain)? Even if you could do that in a way that would make sense, however, your argument would still have been complete bullshit. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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17-02-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 11:42 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "A system that motivates people in other ways than fear and greed."

People aren't motivated by a system, they're motivated by what they learn as children. The system of social organization a society has is the result of its most prominent child rearing techniques. Thus, if you want a more peaceful and empathetic society, you must raise children in a peaceful and empathetic manner.


This is pretty evident when you look at parenting in Austria & Germany during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In simple terms, what was considered "good" parenting in that time would be a leading news story of abuse, neglect, and abandonment today. If there can be any good that came from WWII and the atrocities it brought, it's that German and Austrian parenting techniques changed dramatically. Compared with US parenting today, there's a lot less authoritarianism, superstition & subjugation of children and not coincidentally, Germany isn't going around bombing people for no apparent reason.

So in the end, political action won't work, violent revolution won't work, eliminating property won't work, banning things won't work..... forcing people to do things and/or using violence simply won't work. It's all been tried before and it has always failed.

People in America waged a violent, revolutionary war (ostensibly) over 5% taxation. They got the smallest government the world had ever known out of it then and what do we have less than 300 year later? The largest, most intrusive, most power mad government the world has ever known.

Cut this anarchist crap, would you?

During the American revolutionary times, and after, the goal was to established a government that gave the people, all of the people, as long as you were a white male of a certain age, the most power. The Founding Fathers might have been hypocritical, but they sure as hell weren't libertarians and conservatives. It was a completely different society at the time, but they were liberals, and influenced by liberal ideas, so there is no reason to assume that if they lived in today's society, they would be running around like all of these dumbasses screaming about big and small government, like it's some mountain beast living in the hills, that comes down to fuck with all of the village people.

People today are libertarians and conservatives, not because they want to protect people's rights, which is the bullshit most of them would tell you for why they are in common with some Founding Fathers, they are libertarians and conservatives, to the end of protecting their own financial, economical and political power and wealth.

Also, if you raise kids "in a peaceful and empathetic manner", you will get a whole bunch of greedy douchebags running around with a sense of entitlement, and that is exactly the problem with parenting, and are the results of parenting, today.

Some of the best scientists, engineers, mathematicians and philosophers of that time, were from those parts of the world and came West during those times. If you were looking for something good about WWII, it would be that a lot of intellectual talent landed in America and farther west in Europe. However, those societies could most likely, maybe minus some of the harshness, teach us a lot about how to raise children. You instill your kids with a sense of humility, respect, integrity and a sense of moral duty and virtue. That way you don't have kids running around like their shit don't stink, thinking that they are the most important and only fish in the sea, which is the problem with a good deal of the last two or three generations in America.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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17-02-2013, 05:33 PM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2013 12:43 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 08:54 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(15-02-2013 05:06 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Have you been watching the Zeitgeist/Venus project movies again?

Clearly you don't understand that no matter what the system is people with find a way to exploit it and use it for their own benefit. If the machine is delegating the job, then all you'd need to do is form a group of interpreters. That group would speak for the machine, thus gaining absolute power.

The hard part is coming up with the least exploitable system possible.
I thought I just did. A system that motivates people in other ways than fear and greed. Fear and greed are forces that will eventually wear out any system in which they're used. The system does not matter, it just has to do rational distribution and it has to run on the motivation of creative fun/self-realization, all else delegated to machines.

What you didn't notice is, that when you have a system that runs on creative fun, then gaining absolute power is A CHORE! It's not creative and not fun. Therefore, it's not motivating. People will have a completely different set of values. Your concern about power and misuse comes from the old premises of fear and greed, on scarcity, marketing and material insecurity.

As TrulyX said, the transition is the hard part. I think it might have something to do with
- citizen activism, lots of people getting beaten and tear-gassed by their own policemen, for no reason other than standing too close to each other.
- direct democracy - referendum, plebiscit, immediate repeal of politicians in referendum
- transparency of government
- constitution-based obligatory balanced state budget
- interest-free economy, practically constant supply of money, ban of banking industry and erasing debts
- sharing and providing basic needs and resources
While I do agree that transitions from one form of a government to another is incredibly hard, and usually involves armed conflict, with out a good unexploitable system to replace it, it's doomed to failure right away.

However I do find your assertion that people wouldn't want power hilarious because it essentially throws out a long list of personality disorders. Gaining power is often quite hard in many places yet we see that happen time and time again, that many people are willing to get that power no matter what. Their motivations stem from misplaced love all the way to hate for another group. Ignoring the psychology behind this, and acting like everybody would be too lazy is great mistake.

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17-02-2013, 06:46 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
"Cut this anarchist crap, would you?"

No, but thanks for asking. Why do you think it bothers you so much?

"It was a completely different society at the time, but they were liberals"

I know. Then they were called liberals. Later the name was changed to classical liberal and later still it was changed to libertarian. Democrats and republicans used to be on opposing sides of the slavery debate, with the democrats pro slavery. Funny how names, definitions and positions change over time, isn't it?

"People today are libertarians and conservatives, not because they want to protect people's rights,~"

And you know this about every person who calls himself a libertarian or a conservative how?

"Also, if you raise kids "in a peaceful and empathetic manner", you will
get a whole bunch of greedy douchebags running around with a sense of
entitlement, and that is exactly the problem with parenting, and are the
results of parenting, today."

That's not at all true. Children mimic the behavior they're surrounded with. If they're raised by greedy douchebags who don't hit them, they'll be greedy douchebags who don't hit people. Of course, we don't turn out exactly like our parents but on balance most people are very much like their parents and most people hold the same principles or beliefs their parents hold. Evidence shows that kids who are raised peacefully are much more respectful, much less inclined toward violence and much less plagued with mental disorders than are kids raised "traditionally". You can choose not to look at the evidence and you can choose to attack it. But you can't change a thing by doing so.

"Some of the best scientists, engineers, mathematicians and philosophers
of that time, were from those parts of the world and came West during
those times."

Some people live through house fires. Does that mean people can't die in house fires?

"However, those societies could most likely, maybe minus some of the harshness, teach us a lot about how to raise children."

What parts do we get rid of and what parts do we keep?I'm thinking we should nix the infanticiding of girls, since that's probably more on the violent side. Probably shouldn't infanticide the boys with birth defects either. Of course, we could wind up with too many girls, which is what would have happened then if they didn't get rid of enough of them. Should we keep swaddling and hanging infants in bags on a door or tree while we work? That'll teach em not to squirm around too much, eh? Oh and, even if we stop hanging them in bags, we should definitely not bath them more than once a week or so. Except in cold water. Ice cold baths strengthen the integrity of a six month old. But then again, being made to lie in one's own urine & feces for weeks at a time is quite the humbling experience, don't you think? Daily beatings should definitely be kept, as this ensures that the infant will respect the parent. Plus, while they're being beaten, they can learn virtue from the parent. Manual labor is great for a sense of moral duty so I think we should keep that whole sending them to labor in another man's house when they're seven thing. Plus, you can trade kids with friends who have them too. We should also stop teaching girls so much. Have you seen how uppity these "smart" bitches are nowadays? Barely know their fucking place in the home...
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17-02-2013, 06:59 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 04:04 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  "The first duty of the citizen then as it is now is protection of the state."

If a man is to be treated as a slave, why then make up a special word for slavery?


Oh and, the ruling class in Athens also didn't allow the eunuchs they castrated and buttfucked the right to vote. Thumbsup
Not sure what your trying to say or what your point is.

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17-02-2013, 07:26 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
No worries. The first comment was just, um, anarchist crap. Undecided In simple terms, if a person didn't choose an obligation (or, duty) but is still obliged to perform it, that's slavery, not citizenship. A citizen is a person who lives in a country, not a person who has a duty to a government.

The second one was more a reply to the Wiki flag for clarification. Not really intended to express a point about the topic at hand.
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17-02-2013, 09:31 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
(17-02-2013 07:26 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  No worries. The first comment was just, um, anarchist crap. Undecided In simple terms, if a person didn't choose an obligation (or, duty) but is still obliged to perform it, that's slavery, not citizenship. A citizen is a person who lives in a country, not a person who has a duty to a government.

The second one was more a reply to the Wiki flag for clarification. Not really intended to express a point about the topic at hand.
Fair enough, if that is your take your certainly not alone in considering us all to be slaves. Rousseau's Social Contract opens with much this sentiment "All me are born free, but everywhere they are in chains." Slave, is perhaps for my taste a trifle strong and undervalues the condition, if with all the freedoms and liberties I have I am a slave, what then are those who still are and have been without liberty, freedom in fact have been nothing more than property?

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17-02-2013, 10:08 PM
RE: Should only taxpayers be allowed to vote?
"if with all the freedoms and liberties I have I am a slave, what then
are those who still are and have been without liberty, freedom in fact
have been nothing more than property?"

They're slaves too. The definition of slavery isn't judged by degree any more than the definition of rape is judged by degree. Would you call a woman who had only been digitally penetrated by her attacker not raped? Is she belittling the plight of the woman who was sodomized by three men and beaten half to death just because she too calls herself a rape victim?

I appreciate your civility, btw. I'm accustomed to being berated for calling things by their proper names by people who call pro choice advocates baby killers or by those who accuse capitalists of existing for the sole purpose of starving poor people. Because, well, I'm the one who's exaggerating. Huh


It really boggles my mind how logic gets tossed out the window when the subject of the state or the family comes up. And among atheists no less... honor thy mother and thy father (whether they earn it or not) doesn't seem to go away with rational thinking about gods. And to see them during the pledge of allegiance to their particular country (which is a mere accident of birth) they look like they're in church. WTF???
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