Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
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16-05-2013, 02:22 AM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(16-05-2013 01:25 AM)I and I Wrote:  I don't understand your position. if the capitalist government being in peoples lives are bad, then so are the corporations. Humans are driven by desires and are followers, advertisement execs know this and they spend billions of dollar coming up with ways to get us to consume their product. Shouldn't this type of control and manipulation by corporations stop as well?

Your claims about the capitalist state using violence is true, however most of this violence is done on the behalf of corporate interests, and lobbied for by corporate interests. You seem to think that corporations and government are two distinct entities that are pitted against each other. I see them as basically being one in the same, different factions and working together.

I'm impressed. You managed to have a reasonable sounding conversation with someone who holds a point of view different to yours.

Amazing! Is this really you? Was your account hacked?

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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16-05-2013, 02:28 AM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(16-05-2013 02:22 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(16-05-2013 01:25 AM)I and I Wrote:  I don't understand your position. if the capitalist government being in peoples lives are bad, then so are the corporations. Humans are driven by desires and are followers, advertisement execs know this and they spend billions of dollar coming up with ways to get us to consume their product. Shouldn't this type of control and manipulation by corporations stop as well?

Your claims about the capitalist state using violence is true, however most of this violence is done on the behalf of corporate interests, and lobbied for by corporate interests. You seem to think that corporations and government are two distinct entities that are pitted against each other. I see them as basically being one in the same, different factions and working together.

I'm impressed. You managed to have a reasonable sounding conversation with someone who holds a point of view different to yours.

Amazing! Is this really you? Was your account hacked?

People are full of pleasant surprises once you muster the patience to wade through their bullshit....sometimes.

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16-05-2013, 02:40 AM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(16-05-2013 02:22 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(16-05-2013 01:25 AM)I and I Wrote:  I don't understand your position. if the capitalist government being in peoples lives are bad, then so are the corporations. Humans are driven by desires and are followers, advertisement execs know this and they spend billions of dollar coming up with ways to get us to consume their product. Shouldn't this type of control and manipulation by corporations stop as well?

Your claims about the capitalist state using violence is true, however most of this violence is done on the behalf of corporate interests, and lobbied for by corporate interests. You seem to think that corporations and government are two distinct entities that are pitted against each other. I see them as basically being one in the same, different factions and working together.

I'm impressed. You managed to have a reasonable sounding conversation with someone who holds a point of view different to yours.

Amazing! Is this really you? Was your account hacked?

bbeljefe also has never been a douchebag to me either. Drinking Beverage
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16-05-2013, 02:58 AM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(16-05-2013 02:40 AM)I and I Wrote:  bbeljefe also has never been a douchebag to me either. Drinking Beverage

Can't all be tit for tat. Most people here don't start out nasty.

Maybe you provoked a lot of people around here? Consider

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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16-05-2013, 03:13 AM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(16-05-2013 02:58 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(16-05-2013 02:40 AM)I and I Wrote:  bbeljefe also has never been a douchebag to me either. Drinking Beverage

Can't all be tit for tat. Most people here don't start out nasty.

Maybe you provoked a lot of people around here? Consider

I have never personally attacked someone first. Maybe one guy say to another guy "this guy is bad" then people follow along like.....(animals who like to follow).
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16-05-2013, 07:11 AM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(16-05-2013 03:13 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(16-05-2013 02:58 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  Can't all be tit for tat. Most people here don't start out nasty.

Maybe you provoked a lot of people around here? Consider

I have never personally attacked someone first. Maybe one guy say to another guy "this guy is bad" then people follow along like.....(animals who like to follow).

Mmmmm, I'm pretty sure I remember some instances where you directly singled somebody out from the blue. I'll find those examples later on today.

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16-05-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(16-05-2013 01:25 AM)I and I Wrote:  I don't understand your position. if the capitalist government being in peoples lives are bad, then so are the corporations. Humans are driven by desires and are followers, advertisement execs know this and they spend billions of dollar coming up with ways to get us to consume their product. Shouldn't this type of control and manipulation by corporations stop as well?

Your claims about the capitalist state using violence is true, however most of this violence is done on the behalf of corporate interests, and lobbied for by corporate interests. You seem to think that corporations and government are two distinct entities that are pitted against each other. I see them as basically being one in the same, different factions and working together.

To clarify, there is no such thing as a capitalist government. The US is a representative republic as opposed to a communist state or a direct democracy, et al. Capitalism is not a form of government, it's a form of trade which involves voluntary interaction between individuals. Capitalism and government are mutually exclusive because capitalism involves voluntary trade and all governments utilize coercion and violence in their trading. To describe a government as capitalist is as illogical as describing your phone as a pencil iPhone.

The notion that running psychologically sophisticated ads on television is akin to pointing a gun at someone is also illogical. We are not allowed to not do business with the state. We are allowed to not do business with a corporation. That's as remarkable difference as the difference between consensual sex and rape. If you don't understand why that conflation is false, you will never understand the difference between government and free enterprise. And if you're interested, I'm happy to elaborate.

And I agree that a lot of the violence of the state is invoked by people who own corporations. But the problem I see over and over again with people who demonize free trade on that account is that they entirely ignore the fact that corporations wouldn't even exist in the absence of the state. More importantly, businesses wouldn't be able to use the force they have access to if the state didn't exist. So yeah, we agree that a lot of corporations do evil. They are run by evil people, I'm sure you'd agree. And also... the people who represent the state and who enforce these violent policies are evil. They have to be in order to abide evil.

In the end, if we can say that the world is full of evil people, then we cannot have a state, because the evil people will be attracted to the power government affords them. And if we can say the world is populated by virtuous people, we have no need of the state, because no one will do harm to others. Lastly, if we look at actual, empirical evidence we observe that about 4% of the population are sociopaths. And guess what.... those people are attracted to positions of power. Ergo.... the state.

That's the fundamental flaw with every conceivable notion of the nation state. If you build it, it will be populated by sociopaths. Guaranteed. And there is no system of checks and balances that can control these people because once they gain control, they will corrupt and subvert all attempts at keeping them in check.

And alas... none of that has even the slightest thing to do with me seeing an ad on television and voluntarily choosing to go and spend my money on a product that I want. Even if I was tricked into wanting it, I'm still free to buy it or not buy it. And to tangent just a bit... in a world where people think much more rationally than they do now, those ads would be a lot less effective.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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18-05-2013, 09:27 AM
Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(16-05-2013 10:34 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(16-05-2013 01:25 AM)I and I Wrote:  I don't understand your position. if the capitalist government being in peoples lives are bad, then so are the corporations. Humans are driven by desires and are followers, advertisement execs know this and they spend billions of dollar coming up with ways to get us to consume their product. Shouldn't this type of control and manipulation by corporations stop as well?

Your claims about the capitalist state using violence is true, however most of this violence is done on the behalf of corporate interests, and lobbied for by corporate interests. You seem to think that corporations and government are two distinct entities that are pitted against each other. I see them as basically being one in the same, different factions and working together.

To clarify, there is no such thing as a capitalist government. The US is a representative republic as opposed to a communist state or a direct democracy, et al. Capitalism is not a form of government, it's a form of trade which involves voluntary interaction between individuals. Capitalism and government are mutually exclusive because capitalism involves voluntary trade and all governments utilize coercion and violence in their trading. To describe a government as capitalist is as illogical as describing your phone as a pencil iPhone.

The notion that running psychologically sophisticated ads on television is akin to pointing a gun at someone is also illogical. We are not allowed to not do business with the state. We are allowed to not do business with a corporation. That's as remarkable difference as the difference between consensual sex and rape. If you don't understand why that conflation is false, you will never understand the difference between government and free enterprise. And if you're interested, I'm happy to elaborate.

And I agree that a lot of the violence of the state is invoked by people who own corporations. But the problem I see over and over again with people who demonize free trade on that account is that they entirely ignore the fact that corporations wouldn't even exist in the absence of the state. More importantly, businesses wouldn't be able to use the force they have access to if the state didn't exist. So yeah, we agree that a lot of corporations do evil. They are run by evil people, I'm sure you'd agree. And also... the people who represent the state and who enforce these violent policies are evil. They have to be in order to abide evil.

In the end, if we can say that the world is full of evil people, then we cannot have a state, because the evil people will be attracted to the power government affords them. And if we can say the world is populated by virtuous people, we have no need of the state, because no one will do harm to others. Lastly, if we look at actual, empirical evidence we observe that about 4% of the population are sociopaths. And guess what.... those people are attracted to positions of power. Ergo.... the state.

That's the fundamental flaw with every conceivable notion of the nation state. If you build it, it will be populated by sociopaths. Guaranteed. And there is no system of checks and balances that can control these people because once they gain control, they will corrupt and subvert all attempts at keeping them in check.

And alas... none of that has even the slightest thing to do with me seeing an ad on television and voluntarily choosing to go and spend my money on a product that I want. Even if I was tricked into wanting it, I'm still free to buy it or not buy it. And to tangent just a bit... in a world where people think much more rationally than they do now, those ads would be a lot less effective.

The capitalist government coerces nations economically and militarily if the attempt to become economically independent......checkmate

You also believe in the historical fantasy that business men and government representatives are two separate groups. How much money did the presidents get for their campaign? Checkmate
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18-05-2013, 12:06 PM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(18-05-2013 09:27 AM)I and I Wrote:  
(16-05-2013 10:34 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  To clarify, there is no such thing as a capitalist government. The US is a representative republic as opposed to a communist state or a direct democracy, et al. Capitalism is not a form of government, it's a form of trade which involves voluntary interaction between individuals. Capitalism and government are mutually exclusive because capitalism involves voluntary trade and all governments utilize coercion and violence in their trading. To describe a government as capitalist is as illogical as describing your phone as a pencil iPhone.

The notion that running psychologically sophisticated ads on television is akin to pointing a gun at someone is also illogical. We are not allowed to not do business with the state. We are allowed to not do business with a corporation. That's as remarkable difference as the difference between consensual sex and rape. If you don't understand why that conflation is false, you will never understand the difference between government and free enterprise. And if you're interested, I'm happy to elaborate.

And I agree that a lot of the violence of the state is invoked by people who own corporations. But the problem I see over and over again with people who demonize free trade on that account is that they entirely ignore the fact that corporations wouldn't even exist in the absence of the state. More importantly, businesses wouldn't be able to use the force they have access to if the state didn't exist. So yeah, we agree that a lot of corporations do evil. They are run by evil people, I'm sure you'd agree. And also... the people who represent the state and who enforce these violent policies are evil. They have to be in order to abide evil.

In the end, if we can say that the world is full of evil people, then we cannot have a state, because the evil people will be attracted to the power government affords them. And if we can say the world is populated by virtuous people, we have no need of the state, because no one will do harm to others. Lastly, if we look at actual, empirical evidence we observe that about 4% of the population are sociopaths. And guess what.... those people are attracted to positions of power. Ergo.... the state.

That's the fundamental flaw with every conceivable notion of the nation state. If you build it, it will be populated by sociopaths. Guaranteed. And there is no system of checks and balances that can control these people because once they gain control, they will corrupt and subvert all attempts at keeping them in check.

And alas... none of that has even the slightest thing to do with me seeing an ad on television and voluntarily choosing to go and spend my money on a product that I want. Even if I was tricked into wanting it, I'm still free to buy it or not buy it. And to tangent just a bit... in a world where people think much more rationally than they do now, those ads would be a lot less effective.

The capitalist government coerces nations economically and militarily if the attempt to become economically independent......checkmate

You also believe in the historical fantasy that business men and government representatives are two separate groups. How much money did the presidents get for their campaign? Checkmate

I'm honestly wondering if you've read anything I've written, IandI. And if you have, I wonder why you haven't comprehended it. And I don't mean that as an insult.

The two things you just said to me, I agree with wholeheartedly... save the use of the oxymoron "capitalist government".

Yes... the people who run the state use violence to inflict their will on people in other nations and they extract resources from those nations and hand them over to their friends in the private sector.

Yes... the people who run the state and the people they collude with are one in the same group of people. They're called sociopath, although many of them display a very high number of traits for psychopathy, as well.

However, fascism (what you describe as capitalism) and capitalism as concepts and in practice, are mutually exclusive. When the people who run the state hand over resources to their friends in private enterprise... that isn't capitalism, it's fascism.

One more time... capitalism is me selling you a lawn mower that you want or, you buying a can of soda that you want. Those transactions involve private money being voluntarily exchanged for goods or services and they result in private profits.

Fascism is the state taking your money against your will (or borrowing, printing or otherwise stealing) and handing it over to the private sector. That's public money going to private profits.

Those things are not the same. The people involved in the latter are of the same primitive psychoclasses but what they are doing is not capitalism any more than what a rapist does could be called love making.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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18-05-2013, 04:35 PM
Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(18-05-2013 12:06 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(18-05-2013 09:27 AM)I and I Wrote:  The capitalist government coerces nations economically and militarily if the attempt to become economically independent......checkmate

You also believe in the historical fantasy that business men and government representatives are two separate groups. How much money did the presidents get for their campaign? Checkmate

I'm honestly wondering if you've read anything I've written, IandI. And if you have, I wonder why you haven't comprehended it. And I don't mean that as an insult.

The two things you just said to me, I agree with wholeheartedly... save the use of the oxymoron "capitalist government".

Yes... the people who run the state use violence to inflict their will on people in other nations and they extract resources from those nations and hand them over to their friends in the private sector.

Yes... the people who run the state and the people they collude with are one in the same group of people. They're called sociopath, although many of them display a very high number of traits for psychopathy, as well.

However, fascism (what you describe as capitalism) and capitalism as concepts and in practice, are mutually exclusive. When the people who run the state hand over resources to their friends in private enterprise... that isn't capitalism, it's fascism.

One more time... capitalism is me selling you a lawn mower that you want or, you buying a can of soda that you want. Those transactions involve private money being voluntarily exchanged for goods or services and they result in private profits.

Fascism is the state taking your money against your will (or borrowing, printing or otherwise stealing) and handing it over to the private sector. That's public money going to private profits.

Those things are not the same. The people involved in the latter are of the same primitive psychoclasses but what they are doing is not capitalism any more than what a rapist does could be called love making.

I don't think you can read your own posts....and I don't mean that in an offensive way. You agree that government officials do corporate bidding and government officials often come from the corporate sector, yet somehow believe these two are separate? What kind of mental gymnastics is required to believe that two things are different and the same at the same time?

Show me how large of a post continually quoting people can get and provide evidence of any major governmental organization being separate from the corporate sector.
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