Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
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21-05-2013, 01:10 PM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(21-05-2013 12:13 PM)I and I Wrote:  I never said that all influences affect people in the same way or to the same extent. You and your brother were not born with set tastes in food, your tastes in food were influenced from your environment.

This is why corporations have to spend so much money on ads, the ads are based on psychological research and the corporate types pick the best ad they think can influence the most people. Nobody forced you to start liking pizza, however your liking for pizza was not a "free" choice either. Just letting people choose to eat healthy if they want doesn't work obviously, if it did then we wouldn't have so many overweight people.
You said that advertisements "coerce" people into buying products and they have no choice at all. If ads did indeed coerce people, and people had NO choice in what they ate, then me and my brother would eat the same foods. And we don't: because we can choose which of the available foods we eat.

Quote:Just letting people choose to eat healthy if they want doesn't work obviously, if it did then we wouldn't have so many overweight people.
You seem to be ignoring the problem of healthy foods often costing more (and being more perishable), and unhealthy foods being much cheaper. That is another big reason people choose unhealthy foods. A bag of chips or a mcdonald's burger costs a lot less than a three course meal of chicken breast and fresh veggies and salad. It's like people who bitch about people on gov't assistance buying crap processed foor. They do that so they can get enough food to feed the family and they'd hardly get any food if they bought all fresh produce and meats. Same with many people who don't have much money, they want more food for their money. I think poverty is a big reason for obesity, not advertisements.
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21-05-2013, 04:17 PM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(21-05-2013 01:10 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(21-05-2013 12:13 PM)I and I Wrote:  I never said that all influences affect people in the same way or to the same extent. You and your brother were not born with set tastes in food, your tastes in food were influenced from your environment.

This is why corporations have to spend so much money on ads, the ads are based on psychological research and the corporate types pick the best ad they think can influence the most people. Nobody forced you to start liking pizza, however your liking for pizza was not a "free" choice either. Just letting people choose to eat healthy if they want doesn't work obviously, if it did then we wouldn't have so many overweight people.
You said that advertisements "coerce" people into buying products and they have no choice at all. If ads did indeed coerce people, and people had NO choice in what they ate, then me and my brother would eat the same foods. And we don't: because we can choose which of the available foods we eat.

Quote:Just letting people choose to eat healthy if they want doesn't work obviously, if it did then we wouldn't have so many overweight people.
You seem to be ignoring the problem of healthy foods often costing more (and being more perishable), and unhealthy foods being much cheaper. That is another big reason people choose unhealthy foods. A bag of chips or a mcdonald's burger costs a lot less than a three course meal of chicken breast and fresh veggies and salad. It's like people who bitch about people on gov't assistance buying crap processed foor. They do that so they can get enough food to feed the family and they'd hardly get any food if they bought all fresh produce and meats. Same with many people who don't have much money, they want more food for their money. I think poverty is a big reason for obesity, not advertisements.

Junk food tastes better than broccoli, peas, corn, carrots, lettuce, celery and coconuts. It's possible to eat fresh healthy food cheaply. I've done it. Meat is expensive but not required. You can get away with eating almost no meat or do away with it entirely.

Peas are 15% protein. Milk is equivalent to meat in terms of protein quality. It contains the right ratios for all amino acids we can't synthesize within our own cells.

Coconuts contain allot of fats, and they are cheap and non-perishable. On some islands some people live using coconuts as their main energy source. Considering they regularly live their whole lives on a mostly fat based diet, they live well into their 80's without any access to doctors and have very low rates for heart disease/diabetes.

The people from those islands who adopt a western diet... Thats a different story.

Sugar is addictive and cheap. It is known that sugar is addictive. Tests using sugar as a baseline for addiction potential of various substances are used frequently in animal models. Thats why I see no harm in taxing it.

McDonalds knows the value of getting them while they are young. They offer allot of cheap/free stuff for kids. They make kids birthday parties cheap. They put massive effort into marketing to children.

The effectiveness of marketing campaigns aimed at adults is greatly diminished. Corporations know this.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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21-05-2013, 04:29 PM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(21-05-2013 04:17 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  Junk food tastes better than broccoli, peas, corn, carrots, lettuce, celery and coconuts.

That is a matter of opinion. I largely grew up eating quite a bit of junk food. In college, I craved vegetables. I used to look at the online cafeteria menu to find out when they served brussels sprouts, so i could plan my day around that. I think the reason a lot of kids hate vegetables is because parents act like eating them is a punishment, and sweets are treated like a prize.
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21-05-2013, 05:03 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2013 05:06 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(21-05-2013 04:29 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(21-05-2013 04:17 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  Junk food tastes better than broccoli, peas, corn, carrots, lettuce, celery and coconuts.

That is a matter of opinion. I largely grew up eating quite a bit of junk food. In college, I craved vegetables. I used to look at the online cafeteria menu to find out when they served brussels sprouts, so i could plan my day around that. I think the reason a lot of kids hate vegetables is because parents act like eating them is a punishment, and sweets are treated like a prize.

Not opinion. Scientific fact.

Sugar is addictive. It triggers reward pathways and has similarities with allot of addictive drugs.

The science is there, you can look it up any time. Thousands of studies, books, etc.

I could link you but it should be easy enough for you to find.

I do agree with you somewhat about what the parents do, though that probably stems from sugar addiction behaviour.

"sweets are treated like a prize." and they trigger reward circuits in the brain.

Back in our more primitive environment sugary stuff was only available in the form of fruit. It was also scarce. Things are different now and our evolved pathways are being taken advantage of. Evolution will take quite a while to catch up.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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21-05-2013, 05:20 PM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
I am aware that people crave sugar. I am saying it's not helpful that all sweets are treated as prizes, and vegetables treated as punishments.

And what foods you like is personal and varies. Just because people crave sugar doesn't force them into eating nothing else. That's why I said education is more helpful than banning anything, with education, people could realize they should eat sugar in moderation. Sure, some people just aren't good at moderation, but I don't think that's a reason to punish everyone else.
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21-05-2013, 05:42 PM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
Well, we are already doing that with alcohol, nicotine and other addictive stuff.

We are punishing people like me. I don't have a problem with alcohol and can go for weeks without having any.

I still pay ridiculous taxes when I buy alcohol though.

I still agree that it should be taxed. It creates artificial scarcity - which reduces addicts and addiction severity.

I could use your argument for alcohol and say just because we have some people who aren't good at moderation (alcoholics) isn't a reason to punish everyone.

Our natural environment didn't have refined sugars. We never had practically unlimited quantities of the shit so cheaply available. Quite a few people could be helped by giving them a financial incentive to eat healthier.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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21-05-2013, 05:46 PM
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
^I was talking about banning, not taxing, when I was talking about people being "punished". I'd agree with taxing sugary stuff.
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21-05-2013, 07:24 PM
Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(21-05-2013 01:10 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(21-05-2013 12:13 PM)I and I Wrote:  I never said that all influences affect people in the same way or to the same extent. You and your brother were not born with set tastes in food, your tastes in food were influenced from your environment.

This is why corporations have to spend so much money on ads, the ads are based on psychological research and the corporate types pick the best ad they think can influence the most people. Nobody forced you to start liking pizza, however your liking for pizza was not a "free" choice either. Just letting people choose to eat healthy if they want doesn't work obviously, if it did then we wouldn't have so many overweight people.
You said that advertisements "coerce" people into buying products and they have no choice at all. If ads did indeed coerce people, and people had NO choice in what they ate, then me and my brother would eat the same foods. And we don't: because we can choose which of the available foods we eat.

Quote:Just letting people choose to eat healthy if they want doesn't work obviously, if it did then we wouldn't have so many overweight people.
You seem to be ignoring the problem of healthy foods often costing more (and being more perishable), and unhealthy foods being much cheaper. That is another big reason people choose unhealthy foods. A bag of chips or a mcdonald's burger costs a lot less than a three course meal of chicken breast and fresh veggies and salad. It's like people who bitch about people on gov't assistance buying crap processed foor. They do that so they can get enough food to feed the family and they'd hardly get any food if they bought all fresh produce and meats. Same with many people who don't have much money, they want more food for their money. I think poverty is a big reason for obesity, not advertisements.

Wrong. I said that people's choice in foods is not a free choice. If I choose 10 brands of coffee to put in your house and you choose one of the 10. That is not a free choice because the parameters of your possible choices were controlled by me. I see a pattern in defending corporations on this topic, hence the complete denial of effectiveness marketing campaigns.
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21-05-2013, 07:29 PM
Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(21-05-2013 05:03 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(21-05-2013 04:29 PM)amyb Wrote:  That is a matter of opinion. I largely grew up eating quite a bit of junk food. In college, I craved vegetables. I used to look at the online cafeteria menu to find out when they served brussels sprouts, so i could plan my day around that. I think the reason a lot of kids hate vegetables is because parents act like eating them is a punishment, and sweets are treated like a prize.

Not opinion. Scientific fact.

Sugar is addictive. It triggers reward pathways and has similarities with allot of addictive drugs.

The science is there, you can look it up any time. Thousands of studies, books, etc.

I could link you but it should be easy enough for you to find.

I do agree with you somewhat about what the parents do, though that probably stems from sugar addiction behaviour.

"sweets are treated like a prize." and they trigger reward circuits in the brain.

Back in our more primitive environment sugary stuff was only available in the form of fruit. It was also scarce. Things are different now and our evolved pathways are being taken advantage of. Evolution will take quite a while to catch up.

They aren't giving any quarter on this issue. According to them marketing campaigns are a billion dollar a year industry and they claim that it has no affect and claim that people freely choose to eat what they eat. Complete bullshit. Marketing campaigns are very affective which is why so much money spent on it.
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21-05-2013, 07:31 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2013 07:35 PM by amyb.)
RE: Should soft drinks be banned or heavily taxed?
(21-05-2013 07:24 PM)I and I Wrote:  Wrong. I said that people's choice in foods is not a free choice. If I choose 10 brands of coffee to put in your house and you choose one of the 10. That is not a free choice because the parameters of your possible choices were controlled by me.
I never said we weren't limited by available options. I said we have the choice to choose one of those options, or to choose none of those options. Also, when and how much.

(21-05-2013 07:24 PM)I and I Wrote:  I see a pattern in defending corporations on this topic, hence the complete denial of effectiveness marketing campaigns.
No one is in denial that advertising is effective; only that it doesn't count as "coercion."
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