Should the wife submit?
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18-11-2013, 12:01 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 11:54 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The Bible never says the husband has the right to demand obedience from his wife but she has a obligation to give it. The husband is equally obligated to love his wife and to sacrifice himself for her welfare.
Have you read the bible?
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_sexism
Quote:Genesis 3:16: "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."
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18-11-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 11:17 AM)Eruvande Wrote:  I've been hugely affected by these biblical ideas, effectively becoming a baby machine and domestic slave for much of my marriage.

Sad

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18-11-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 11:40 AM)LadyJane Wrote:  I attended a wedding like this, and it went into mega detail. The pastor said that on *some* nights wife might be tired though, and if you could possibly help scrub the pot from the roast then that would be a nice thing to do, although it would be the exception. However, after husband comes home from a long day at work (she works too BTW) that he might not feel like seeing her and might want to go play his guitar or video games.

The little speech was 17 minutes long (I watched my wristwatch). It was ALL about duties, mostly about the kitchen, but some other household stuff (???), and some touched on other friends (husband should be able to get out with his buddies, wife should be allowed to go to her ladies night church group, etc).
WTF?

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry, because obviously I knew these people.

Such simple explanations for what it takes to make a marriage, or any relationship, work. Good grief.

I was at one not long ago, and the idiot priest not only went into this, but then proceeded to start discussing that ALL priests were not child molesters. !! He went ON and ON about it. People were looking at each other, like WTAF is he talking about ?

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18-11-2013, 12:28 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 11:38 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 10:55 AM)cjlr Wrote:  No, there're... quite a few legal advantages conferred.

I agree that there are lots of people who don't do it for good reasons, but there are plenty of reasons.

Certainly legal advantages are one reason, but that's certainly not why the majority do it. I mean if the masses used it primarily for legal reasons than they wouldn't be spending thousands for 1 day to celebrate it.

The point is not that marriage has certain advantages and disadvantages, (because everything marriage has to offer can be done without marriage btw.) the point is purpose. Why do people get married?

They get married because it's part of the brand. It's like the 1.25 kids is part of the brand. The 9-5. The 4 door sedan. People do these things because they want too sure, but there's a lot of pressure from society for people to be this way to begin with. Even as little kids, we're raised in a certain way that this is almost expected of us. It makes you wonder how much people actually do want to do these things and how much of it is people doing it because they think it's the right thing to do, because it's what's expected of them.

I dunno, it's just part of a theory I have about "normal" people. I'm probably talking out my ass but I like to think it's coming from an impartial viewer sitting on the outside looking in.

Quote:It's about sharing life.

Which you can do without marriage..
I can go water skiing with someone regardless of marriage status.

Quote:That means being there for each other for instance when one is in the hospital - something you cannot do if you are not married.

Sure you can.

Quote:Whether marriage is needed for love is not the issue. It is a symbol, plus it has many legal advantages, tax wise, estate wise and in many other small things.

It's a shit symbol. It has a horrible history which you can google.
And why do you need to symbolize your love to someone?
Does not getting married mean you love each other less? Do the love chemicals in your brain not flow as strongly?
Those legal advantages can be achieved without marriage. Marriage is the easiest way yes, but it doesn't have to be. It also several legal disadvantages. ie: courts tend to favor the women in a divorce.
Not to mention I'm sure the number 1 reason for getting married for you wasn't "because it was legally convenient".

Quote:I didn't marry everyone I chose to cohabit with. But I did marry who I wanted to share my life with. A life partner.

A life partner that could still be your life partner without marriage.

You are wrong.

If I had not been married to my husband, I would not have been granted unlimited visitation in the hospital when he was fighting for his life. I would not have been consulted regarding decisions when he was unable to make them. I would have been allowed in for two hours a day, on days when he was not in ICU. He was in ICU off and on for 3 weeks. As his wife, I spent all day every day with him for 6 weeks. I was able to push for his release from the hospital. I was able to have him released into my care. None of this would have been possible had we not been married.

If I had not been married to my husband, I would still fight for access to bank accounts, car titles, real estate titles and all that crap that happens when someone dies. And that is not the time to be bogged down with stupid bureaucracy. Not to mention the pension I would not have gotten, the social security benefits I would not have gotten, the lawyer I would have had to hire and whatnot.

And then there are the tax benefits. Wait til you make money, and you'll rethink.

I get where you are coming from, I thought the same when I was your age. Live a while longer, and life's unpleasant possibilities become more real, and you'll do the rational thing.

Why do you think gays pushed so hard to be able to marry? Because it has many benefits that life partners are able to share, that's why.

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18-11-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
Should the wife submit? Sure, if she's into it. The husband can do the same. Some people are kinky like that. Wink

Outside of a sub/dom fetish relationship, though, no. Pretty much no.

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18-11-2013, 12:51 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 12:28 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 11:38 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Certainly legal advantages are one reason, but that's certainly not why the majority do it. I mean if the masses used it primarily for legal reasons than they wouldn't be spending thousands for 1 day to celebrate it.

The point is not that marriage has certain advantages and disadvantages, (because everything marriage has to offer can be done without marriage btw.) the point is purpose. Why do people get married?

They get married because it's part of the brand. It's like the 1.25 kids is part of the brand. The 9-5. The 4 door sedan. People do these things because they want too sure, but there's a lot of pressure from society for people to be this way to begin with. Even as little kids, we're raised in a certain way that this is almost expected of us. It makes you wonder how much people actually do want to do these things and how much of it is people doing it because they think it's the right thing to do, because it's what's expected of them.

I dunno, it's just part of a theory I have about "normal" people. I'm probably talking out my ass but I like to think it's coming from an impartial viewer sitting on the outside looking in.


Which you can do without marriage..
I can go water skiing with someone regardless of marriage status.


Sure you can.


It's a shit symbol. It has a horrible history which you can google.
And why do you need to symbolize your love to someone?
Does not getting married mean you love each other less? Do the love chemicals in your brain not flow as strongly?
Those legal advantages can be achieved without marriage. Marriage is the easiest way yes, but it doesn't have to be. It also several legal disadvantages. ie: courts tend to favor the women in a divorce.
Not to mention I'm sure the number 1 reason for getting married for you wasn't "because it was legally convenient".


A life partner that could still be your life partner without marriage.

You are wrong.

If I had not been married to my husband, I would not have been granted unlimited visitation in the hospital when he was fighting for his life. I would not have been consulted regarding decisions when he was unable to make them. I would have been allowed in for two hours a day, on days when he was not in ICU. He was in ICU off and on for 3 weeks. As his wife, I spent all day every day with him for 6 weeks. I was able to push for his release from the hospital. I was able to have him released into my care. None of this would have been possible had we not been married.

If I had not been married to my husband, I would still fight for access to bank accounts, car titles, real estate titles and all that crap that happens when someone dies. And that is not the time to be bogged down with stupid bureaucracy. Not to mention the pension I would not have gotten, the social security benefits I would not have gotten, the lawyer I would have had to hire and whatnot.

And then there are the tax benefits. Wait til you make money, and you'll rethink.

I get where you are coming from, I thought the same when I was your age. Live a while longer, and life's unpleasant possibilities become more real, and you'll do the rational thing.

Why do you think gays pushed so hard to be able to marry? Because it has many benefits that life partners are able to share, that's why.


Yes! Exactly!

When my husband was in the hospital for mania, people wanted to pul him out to practice exorcism. Thankfully I had control over his medical care and was able to get him the help he needed.

Marriage, as much as it is about love, is a legal aid for the person you love so you can commit to them and trust them to do the same for you.
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18-11-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 11:54 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 11:24 AM)Elesjei Wrote:  ^This. In a marriage, spouses should be equal partners. Obedience means one spouse is superior to the other, and that should not be acceptable. You can demand obedience from your dog, but not your wife.
God established marriage as a relationship in which the partners are equal but each has different responsibilities toward the other. The Bible never says the husband has the right to demand obedience from his wife but she has a obligation to give it. The husband is equally obligated to love his wife and to sacrifice himself for her welfare.

Word games. It's no longer PC to say that the wife must obey the husband as Paul does explicitly, so you change it to 'obligation' and think that makes it all better ?

*Fundamentally fucked up* is still *fundamentally fucked up* no matter how many coats of whitewash you give it.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-11-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: Should the wife submit?
This whole submission thing is a big part of what drove me away from Christianity.

MY LIFE IS MY OWN!

I DO WHAT I WANT!

YOURE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!

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19-11-2013, 12:30 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 11:54 AM)theophilus Wrote:  God established marriage as a relationship in which the partners are equal but each has different responsibilities toward the other. The Bible never says the husband has the right to demand obedience from his wife but she has a obligation to give it. The husband is equally obligated to love his wife and to sacrifice himself for her welfare.

Soo....

Bible Wrote:Genesis 3:16 - Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Leviticus 12:2 - Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

Leviticus 12:5 - But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

1 Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Corinthians 11:7 - For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5:22 - 25 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Colossians 3:18 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:9 - 15 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Titus 2:3 - 5 - The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

1 Peter 3:5 -7 - For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

We're supposed to ignore all that (and more), then?

After actually reading the Bible, the last thing any reasonable person would come away with is the notion that men and women are equal, especially in marriage.

It says again and again in very clear terms that, while a man should honor and respect his wife, he has dominion over her, and she must submit to him. She is not an equal partner.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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19-11-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
There is no "submit" in our marriage. Me and my wife treat each other fairly and both try to share the load of what we do for our responsibilities. It's a pretty old style of thinking I think. Why should anyone be forced to "submit" to another person?

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