Should the wife submit?
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19-11-2013, 12:44 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 10:06 AM)guitarist Wrote:  How do you married people out there manage the marriage? Should anyone submit and how are decisions made and conflicts resolved?

If I told my wife that she should obey me, she would either laugh at me (if she were feeling charitable) or divorce me. It'd probably be divorce. If anything, she tends to come off as the more assertive of the two of us in day to day things.

As to how we manage, we have certain jobs that we both do (cook, wash the dishes, and take care of the kids) and certain ones that each of us do (she tends to do more of the bills and administration and bills and I tend to do the yard work, clean the bathrooms, take out the trash, and do minor car maintenance). As for deciding stuff, we both make big decisions together. If we are both around, the person cooking dinner will usually consult the other before making a decision, but if the other one isn't home, we just make an "executive decision".
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19-11-2013, 12:59 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2013 12:26 AM by guitarist.)
RE: Should the wife submit?
(19-11-2013 12:30 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  Soo....

Bible Wrote:Genesis 3:16 - Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Leviticus 12:2 - Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

Leviticus 12:5 - But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.

1 Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Corinthians 11:7 - For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35 - Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5:22 - 25 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Colossians 3:18 - Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:9 - 15 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Titus 2:3 - 5 - The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

1 Peter 3:5 -7 - For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with [them] according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

We're supposed to ignore all that (and more), then?

After actually reading the Bible, the last thing any reasonable person would come away with is the notion that men and women are equal, especially in marriage.

It says again and again in very clear terms that, while a man should honor and respect his wife, he has dominion over her, and she must submit to him. She is not an equal partner.

Might as well have a verse saying - thou women shalt be men's bitch, for The Lord thy god is a sexist misogynist, who although is eternal, fits the thinking of the time the bible was written.

It's really weird though, my parents believe in bible infallibility yet mum makes most decisions and dad just nods his head for convenience. Guess they are heretics.

It's scary how women can be so indoctrinated that they willingly enter a marriage like that.

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19-11-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
As the saying goes - "There are parts of the Bible I like, and parts I don't like."

Every Christian is a cherry picker, as far as I have seen - even the nice ones; ignoring the death sentence for homosexuality, but promoting charity based on Jesus quotes.

The Bible is a choose-your-own-adventure book, apparently.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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19-11-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 10:55 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 10:24 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  The reason people get married is because they think it's the right thing to do.
They think that for people to take their relationship serious you need to be married. Society says to do so, so they do.

No, there're... quite a few legal advantages conferred.

I agree that there are lots of people who don't do it for good reasons, but there are plenty of reasons.

Agreed, but the "legal reasons" are there artificially. Yes, you can get your love on your insurance if you marry, but why the fuck is it set up that way? I'm not going to get married because of artificial legal advantages that are tied to it, that's the wrong reason to get married, IMO.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-11-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(19-11-2013 01:18 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  The Bible is a choose-your-own-adventure book, apparently.

That would have made it awesome!

"Does Eve eat the fruit? Yes: turn to page 27. No: turn to page 45,697."

"Does Noah build the ark? Yes: turn to page 355. No: turn to page 367."

"Does Samson get drunk with the hot woman? Yes: turn to page 1,452. No: turn to page 2,562."

"Does Paul/Saul submit to the voice he is hearing along the road to Damascus? Yes: turn to page 13,522. No: turn to page 27,559."

Fucking epic.
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19-11-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 11:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 10:24 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  And this means marriage why?

I could create a joint bank account with whoever I wanted (as long as they agreed obviously). Nothing stopping me moving in with whoever either.

You don't need to get married to pool resources.

The reason people get married is because they think it's the right thing to do.
They think that for people to take their relationship serious you need to be married. Society says to do so, so they do.

It's not about sharing bank accounts - actually hubby and I each had our own plus a joint one for household expenses.

It's about sharing life.

That means being there for each other for instance when one is in the hospital - something you cannot do if you are not married.

Sure you can.

Quote:Whether marriage is needed for love is not the issue. It is a symbol, plus it has many legal advantages, tax wise, estate wise and in many other small things.

Artificially-imposed "advantages".

Quote:I didn't marry everyone I chose to cohabit with. But I did marry who I wanted to share my life with. A life partner.

But you can still do that without buying into the convention of marriage.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-11-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(19-11-2013 01:45 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 11:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  That means being there for each other for instance when one is in the hospital - something you cannot do if you are not married.

Sure you can.

No, really, you can't. Hospitals have greater restrictions on visitors than on spouses.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-11-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(19-11-2013 01:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 10:55 AM)cjlr Wrote:  No, there're... quite a few legal advantages conferred.

I agree that there are lots of people who don't do it for good reasons, but there are plenty of reasons.

Agreed, but the "legal reasons" are there artificially.

As a social construct, they are by definition artificial.

(19-11-2013 01:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Yes, you can get your love on your insurance if you marry, but why the fuck is it set up that way?

Because most people would hardly be bothered (and why should they be?) to draw up individualised legal contracts...

(19-11-2013 01:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  I'm not going to get married because of artificial legal advantages that are tied to it, that's the wrong reason to get married, IMO.

I should hardly think anyone is going around asking strangers to marry for tax purposes alone. Wink

For the most part the provisions are things you'd probably want anyway, if you're committing to a long-term relationship with another person.

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19-11-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 11:54 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 11:24 AM)Elesjei Wrote:  ^This. In a marriage, spouses should be equal partners. Obedience means one spouse is superior to the other, and that should not be acceptable. You can demand obedience from your dog, but not your wife.
God established marriage as a relationship in which the partners are equal but each has different responsibilities toward the other. The Bible never says the husband has the right to demand obedience from his wife but she has a obligation to give it. The husband is equally obligated to love his wife and to sacrifice himself for her welfare.

LOL @ "Gawd established marriage..."

Horseshit. MEN established marriage, toots.

And I don't seem to remember the Gawd character marrying the Adam and Eve characters in your fairy tale book.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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19-11-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: Should the wife submit?
(18-11-2013 12:28 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 11:38 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Certainly legal advantages are one reason, but that's certainly not why the majority do it. I mean if the masses used it primarily for legal reasons than they wouldn't be spending thousands for 1 day to celebrate it.

The point is not that marriage has certain advantages and disadvantages, (because everything marriage has to offer can be done without marriage btw.) the point is purpose. Why do people get married?

They get married because it's part of the brand. It's like the 1.25 kids is part of the brand. The 9-5. The 4 door sedan. People do these things because they want too sure, but there's a lot of pressure from society for people to be this way to begin with. Even as little kids, we're raised in a certain way that this is almost expected of us. It makes you wonder how much people actually do want to do these things and how much of it is people doing it because they think it's the right thing to do, because it's what's expected of them.

I dunno, it's just part of a theory I have about "normal" people. I'm probably talking out my ass but I like to think it's coming from an impartial viewer sitting on the outside looking in.


Which you can do without marriage..
I can go water skiing with someone regardless of marriage status.


Sure you can.


It's a shit symbol. It has a horrible history which you can google.
And why do you need to symbolize your love to someone?
Does not getting married mean you love each other less? Do the love chemicals in your brain not flow as strongly?
Those legal advantages can be achieved without marriage. Marriage is the easiest way yes, but it doesn't have to be. It also several legal disadvantages. ie: courts tend to favor the women in a divorce.
Not to mention I'm sure the number 1 reason for getting married for you wasn't "because it was legally convenient".


A life partner that could still be your life partner without marriage.

You are wrong.

If I had not been married to my husband, I would not have been granted unlimited visitation in the hospital when he was fighting for his life. I would not have been consulted regarding decisions when he was unable to make them. I would have been allowed in for two hours a day, on days when he was not in ICU. He was in ICU off and on for 3 weeks. As his wife, I spent all day every day with him for 6 weeks. I was able to push for his release from the hospital. I was able to have him released into my care. None of this would have been possible had we not been married.

If I had not been married to my husband, I would still fight for access to bank accounts, car titles, real estate titles and all that crap that happens when someone dies. And that is not the time to be bogged down with stupid bureaucracy. Not to mention the pension I would not have gotten, the social security benefits I would not have gotten, the lawyer I would have had to hire and whatnot.

And then there are the tax benefits. Wait til you make money, and you'll rethink.

Every bit of that is artificial bullshit that has been injected into society **to make marriage as obligatory as possible**.



Quote:I get where you are coming from, I thought the same when I was your age. Live a while longer, and life's unpleasant possibilities become more real, and you'll do the rational thing.

The RATIONAL thing, really? Doing what you don't believe in so you can get the carrot on the stick? I don't call that "rational" at all.

Quote:Why do you think gays pushed so hard to be able to marry? Because it has many benefits that life partners are able to share, that's why.

Yes, they want the benefits that are ***artificially*** withheld from them because they aren't married.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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