Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
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10-05-2013, 05:41 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(10-05-2013 05:29 PM)shiranl Wrote:  No, I made a very fact-based statement that Israel IS a secular country, and than brought a link that proves my point- a survey from 2010.
You said it isn't- because of history. Which once again- was distorted by you.

No, It isn't. Part, and yes- a major part- of Judaism is religion. But it isn't all of it. Judaism is a nation. Jewish people are a nation that also share a religion- that I chose not to practice and not to believe in. So yes- I can still celebrate Pass Over, Purim, Shavuot etc, etc and not believe in god or gods, because there are also cultural aspects of the Jewish holydays and life cycle. Food, music and litreture. So yes- I can eat milk products on Shavuot without believing in god or gods, I can dance and enjoy my self in costume parties on Purim without believing in god or gods and I can appriciate the family get-together on Shabbat night without believing in god or gods.
So yes, I can be both Jewish and atheist and it doesn't contradict itself.

From where they came from? From the Roman Empire, who controlled this land for 400 years and exiled the Jews from here. Rome, as in today's Italy? Italy, the country in Europe? familiar with that?

So "jewishness" is what then? A race? An ethnicity? a religion? If someone doesn't believe in christianity then they stop calling themselves christian. Why do you call yourself jewish still?


And no, wrong again the Romans didn't expel jews either, they even had jewish leaders in power to rule their puppet states, as was the case in Judea. I wouldn't be going on any Israeli Jeopardy shows anytime soon dear. Drinking Beverage
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10-05-2013, 06:25 PM (This post was last modified: 11-05-2013 02:28 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(10-05-2013 04:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 03:57 PM)kim Wrote:  Post 19 on this thread contains this sentence:


That is the first posting of historical mention brought into this thread. Shiranl didn't write it, you did.

Hey stupid, is it one or two people bring up history? Oh thats right, no answer..

Shiranl made a bullshit claim that Israel was a secular nation, I responded that it is not because the SOLE MOTHER FUCKING REASON it was founded was because of bullshit religious beliefs. Do you agree or disagree that Israel was founded on religious beliefs?

And explain how one can be jewish and an atheist at the same time? That is like saying there can be christian atheists or muslim atheists.


I post a thread about women gaining recognition in Israel and I am bad guy for it. Dumb bitches....Rolleyes

The reason the US was founded was for religious reasons. They wanted to be free to practice their religion, and they were punished for doing so in Europe.
So I and I's point about Israel being unique in that regard is unfounded.
The Romans expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews, both after the temple was destroyed, and even more after the bar Kochba revolt.
I hate to confuse him with more facts.

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10-05-2013, 06:53 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(10-05-2013 06:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 04:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  Hey stupid, is it one or two people bring up history? Oh thats right, no answer..

Shiranl made a bullshit claim that Israel was a secular nation, I responded that it is not because the SOLE MOTHER FUCKING REASON it was founded was because of bullshit religious beliefs. Do you agree or disagree that Israel was founded on religious beliefs?

And explain how one can be jewish and an atheist at the same time? That is like saying there can be christian atheists or muslim atheists.


I post a thread about women gaining recognition in Israel and I am bad guy for it. Dumb bitches....Rolleyes

The reason the US was founded was for religious reasons. They wanted to be free to practice their religion, and they were punished for doing so in Europe.
So I and I's point about Israel being unique in that regard is unfounded.
The Romans expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews, both after the first temple was destroyed, and even more after the bar Kochba revolt.
I hate to confuse him with more facts.

Hey Bucky I was looking up that book I&I mentioned and came across this scathing review.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_contex...ticle=1776

Quote:The author does not pretend to reveal any new primary source material. His conceit is that he is keener and more honest than the "authorized" experts in Jewish history whom he disparages, and that he, by contrast, is uncovering "surprising connections" and offering "unexpected insights."

Ironically, Sand draws not only upon the revisionist theories of Bible critics, journalists, philosophers and archeologists who share his perspective, but upon the work of the very same historians whom he dismisses – cherry-picking the facts he favors and ridiculing the conclusions that don't meet his needs.

Sound familiar? Cherry-picking ignoring rebuttals and choosing evidence only to support his own preconceived notions. Yeah that sounds like I&I to me.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-05-2013, 07:32 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(10-05-2013 06:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 04:20 PM)I and I Wrote:  Hey stupid, is it one or two people bring up history? Oh thats right, no answer..

Shiranl made a bullshit claim that Israel was a secular nation, I responded that it is not because the SOLE MOTHER FUCKING REASON it was founded was because of bullshit religious beliefs. Do you agree or disagree that Israel was founded on religious beliefs?

And explain how one can be jewish and an atheist at the same time? That is like saying there can be christian atheists or muslim atheists.


I post a thread about women gaining recognition in Israel and I am bad guy for it. Dumb bitches....Rolleyes

The reason the US was founded was for religious reasons. They wanted to be free to practice their religion, and they were punished for doing so in Europe.
So I and I's point about Israel being unique in that regard is unfounded.
The Romans expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews, both after the first temple was destroyed, and even more after the bar Kochba revolt.
I hate to confuse him with more facts.

Who said that Israel was unique in forming a nation on religious grounds?

The Romans never expelled jews from Roman territory or from the middle east. Is there any historical evidence of a mass migration in a short time frame? NOPE And do you agree or disagree that the Romans had Jewish leaders that were rulers of middle eastern territory held by Romans?
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10-05-2013, 07:36 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(10-05-2013 07:32 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 06:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The reason the US was founded was for religious reasons. They wanted to be free to practice their religion, and they were punished for doing so in Europe.
So I and I's point about Israel being unique in that regard is unfounded.
The Romans expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews, both after the first temple was destroyed, and even more after the bar Kochba revolt.
I hate to confuse him with more facts.

Who said that Israel was unique in forming a nation on religious grounds?

The Romans never expelled jews from Roman territory or from the middle east. Is there any historical evidence of a mass migration in a short time frame? NOPE And do you agree or disagree that the Romans had Jewish leaders that were rulers of middle eastern territory held by Romans?

Even after the many revolts, the Romans installed a jewish group to represent the jewish people in the Roman Empire, meaning there was no "expelling of jewish people" in massive numbers and certainly not complete and total expelling.
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10-05-2013, 09:12 PM
Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(10-05-2013 06:53 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 06:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The reason the US was founded was for religious reasons. They wanted to be free to practice their religion, and they were punished for doing so in Europe.
So I and I's point about Israel being unique in that regard is unfounded.
The Romans expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews, both after the first temple was destroyed, and even more after the bar Kochba revolt.
I hate to confuse him with more facts.

Hey Bucky I was looking up that book I&I mentioned and came across this scathing review.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_contex...ticle=1776

Quote:The author does not pretend to reveal any new primary source material. His conceit is that he is keener and more honest than the "authorized" experts in Jewish history whom he disparages, and that he, by contrast, is uncovering "surprising connections" and offering "unexpected insights."

Ironically, Sand draws not only upon the revisionist theories of Bible critics, journalists, philosophers and archeologists who share his perspective, but upon the work of the very same historians whom he dismisses – cherry-picking the facts he favors and ridiculing the conclusions that don't meet his needs.

Sound familiar? Cherry-picking ignoring rebuttals and choosing evidence only to support his own preconceived notions. Yeah that sounds like I&I to me.

Do you fucking read? That article is a religious article that quotes religious texts that state that it was the sin of the Jewish people that caused them to be out of Israel. Seriously, you are now using the bible to prove your fucking point?


Again, are you an atheist? If so, why would religious texts have any relevance to history? Learn history and stop reading your bibles.
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10-05-2013, 09:19 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
Quote:In another such example, Sand argues that today's Jews are descended entirely from converts to Judaism — the Ashkenazi Jews from Khazars, a nomadic Turkic tribe, and the Sephardi Jews from Berbers, Himyarites, and other groups of converts.

While there is no scholar who argues that Jewish lineage has been racially pure since biblical times or hides the fact that religious converts to Judaism from locations outside Israel have contributed to the Jewish gene pool, recent genetic studies demonstrate that Jews from diverse backgrounds around the world show genetic similarity not only with each other but with others from the Middle East.

Some of the best-known studies have compared the DNA of self-reported Cohanim (members of the Jewish patrilineal priestly line) from diverse backgrounds (both Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi) with cohorts of non-Jewish males from the same areas. The results reveal a remarkable similarity in the DNA sequence patterns of the Cohanim (who share what is termed the Cohen Modal Haplotype) across different continents but not shared by non-Jewish males from the same geographic locations, suggesting a shared a common origin in the Middle East well before the dispersion of Jews into separate communities.

Unequipped to dispute the scientific studies that disprove his theory, Sand rejects them out of hand, ridicules the investigators with sarcastic, ad hominem attacks, and even resorts to using anti-Semitic stereotypes. For example he writes:

The gates of Western canonical science–mainly in the United States–opened to the industrious Israeli researchers, who regularly blended historical mythologies and sociological assumptions with dubious and scanty genetic findings.

And:

The new paper...showed the sly Y-chromosome had fooled its inexperienced investigators. But never fear, the updated genetic picture still indicated that the Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews were related....

And, perhaps most disturbingly:

Israeli researchers received generous funds from government and private foundations, and the scientific results soon followed.

Here Sand introduces an anti-Semitic stereotype of Jewish money buying results.

In the one instance where Sand actually ventures to dispute the science, he reveals just how out of his depth he is:

The amusing aspect of this story is that the ‘priestly gene' could just as easily be a ‘non-Jewish gene.' Judaism is inherited from the mother, so it would not be far-fetched to assume that...a good many, non-believing cohanim have married ‘gentile' women. These men may well have fathered ‘non-Jewish' offspring, who...would bear the ‘genetic seal' of the cohanim. But Jewish scientists are not expected to consider such minor details...

Cohanim are descended in a patrilineal fashion, so of what relevance is maternally inherited Judaism here? Absolutely none. Even accepting that a certain number of non-Jews are descended from Jewish Cohanim, would it disprove that Cohanim have a Jewish common ancestry going back thousands of years? Of course not. In fact, the number of non-Jews who share the specific genetic pattern of Cohanim is insignificant, as evidenced by its absence in the large cohorts of non-Jewish men from the same areas who served as the control groups in these studies.

In other words, this is yet another example of Sand's irrelevant argumentation to distract his readers from the obvious defects of his thesis. Indeed, the defects are only underscored by his illogic, but this seems to be of no matter to the book's admirers.

Yup real biblical sourcing...

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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10-05-2013, 09:27 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2013 09:50 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(10-05-2013 07:32 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(10-05-2013 06:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The reason the US was founded was for religious reasons. They wanted to be free to practice their religion, and they were punished for doing so in Europe.
So I and I's point about Israel being unique in that regard is unfounded.
The Romans expelled hundreds of thousands of Jews, both after the first temple was destroyed, and even more after the bar Kochba revolt.
I hate to confuse him with more facts.

Who said that Israel was unique in forming a nation on religious grounds?

The Romans never expelled jews from Roman territory or from the middle east. Is there any historical evidence of a mass migration in a short time frame? NOPE And do you agree or disagree that the Romans had Jewish leaders that were rulers of middle eastern territory held by Romans?

No sources. I and I is the very last person I would ever trust to state something with no documentation. He is the village idiot. He seems to need to keep reminding everyone of that fact.
So all the historians writing about all the expulsions, including Hadrain's famous one, were all just cooked up to fool us. Right. Weeping
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_refugees

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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10-05-2013, 11:32 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
The term Jews in its original meaning refers to the people of the tribe of Judah or the people of the kingdom of Judah. The name of both the tribe and kingdom derive from Judah, the fourth son of Jacob. Originally, the Hebrew term Jews Yehudi referred only to members of the tribe of Judah. Later, after the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel, the term Jews was applied for the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes.

The Land of Israel, which is considered by Jews to be the promised land, was the place where Jewish identity was formed, although this identity was formed gradually reaching many of its current form in the Exilic and post-Exilic period. By the Hellenistic period (after 332 BCE) the Jews had become a self-consciously separate community based in Jerusalem. For a time in the 2nd century BCE the Jews succeeded in creating a nominally independent kingdom (the Hasmonean Kingdom) covering much of the biblical "Land of Israel", but by the end of the 1st century BCE this was absorbed into the Roman empire.

A series of revolts against the Romans led to the forced dispersal of much of the Jewish population from Jerusalem and Judea, Jerusalem being renamed Aelia Capitolina and Judea province renamed Syria Palestina, and it was not until the 19th century and the growth of the Jewish Zionist movement that large-scale migration began the return of large numbers of Jews.

This movement culminated in the 20th century with the creation of the present State of Israel, largely within the borders of the biblical "Land of Israel", although the original core areas, the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah, are often considered outside the core of present-day Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_..._of_Israel
________

Jewish people, are a nation and an ethnoreligious group, originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation. Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia.

Genetic studies on Jews show that most Jews worldwide bear a common genetic heritage which originates in the Middle East, and that they bear their strongest resemblance to the peoples of the Fertile Crescent. According to archaeologists, however, Israelite culture did not overtake the region, but rather grew out of Canaanite culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews
_________

Wikipedia is kind of crap but it can at least help accurately date and give a general overview of material from which to springboard into further research.

It is usually wise to read more than one thing on a subject when trying to become historically informed.
_________

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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11-05-2013, 06:00 PM
Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(10-05-2013 11:32 PM)kim Wrote:  The term Jews in its original meaning refers to the people of the tribe of Judah or the people of the kingdom of Judah. The name of both the tribe and kingdom derive from Judah, the fourth son of Jacob. Originally, the Hebrew term Jews Yehudi referred only to members of the tribe of Judah. Later, after the destruction of the northern kingdom of Israel, the term Jews was applied for the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes.

The Land of Israel, which is considered by Jews to be the promised land, was the place where Jewish identity was formed, although this identity was formed gradually reaching many of its current form in the Exilic and post-Exilic period. By the Hellenistic period (after 332 BCE) the Jews had become a self-consciously separate community based in Jerusalem. For a time in the 2nd century BCE the Jews succeeded in creating a nominally independent kingdom (the Hasmonean Kingdom) covering much of the biblical "Land of Israel", but by the end of the 1st century BCE this was absorbed into the Roman empire.

A series of revolts against the Romans led to the forced dispersal of much of the Jewish population from Jerusalem and Judea, Jerusalem being renamed Aelia Capitolina and Judea province renamed Syria Palestina, and it was not until the 19th century and the growth of the Jewish Zionist movement that large-scale migration began the return of large numbers of Jews.

This movement culminated in the 20th century with the creation of the present State of Israel, largely within the borders of the biblical "Land of Israel", although the original core areas, the Iron Age kingdoms of Israel and Judah, are often considered outside the core of present-day Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_..._of_Israel
________

Jewish people, are a nation and an ethnoreligious group, originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation. Converts to Judaism, whose status as Jews within the Jewish ethnos is equal to those born into it, have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia.

Genetic studies on Jews show that most Jews worldwide bear a common genetic heritage which originates in the Middle East, and that they bear their strongest resemblance to the peoples of the Fertile Crescent. According to archaeologists, however, Israelite culture did not overtake the region, but rather grew out of Canaanite culture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews
_________

Wikipedia is kind of crap but it can at least help accurately date and give a general overview of material from which to springboard into further research.

It is usually wise to read more than one thing on a subject when trying to become historically informed.
_________

The term jew describes followers of a religion. Other religious people who believe in the bible have come to label them as a "race" or "ethnic group". Calling Jews a "race" is racist and isn't even historically or scientifically accurate. There have been many ethnic groups that believe in Judaism, some even with different sects of Judaism. Followers of Judaism in Europe in the 20th century in Europe are VERY different culturally and ethnically than Jews thousands of years ago or even Jews in different cultures. The false idea of a ONE cohesive historical lineage of followers of Judaism is a completely mythical religious idea. Religious people need to believe in that nonsense because it self explains the other bullshit in the bible. How can anyone with common sense believe that over thousands of years and over many contrives and cultures that there is only ONE LINEAGE OF JEWS. Religious people need bullshit like that to believe in their other bullshit.
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