Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
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13-05-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(13-05-2013 12:24 PM)shiranl Wrote:  Fucktardo (and thank you Filox),

I am here. I just lack every will to discuss with a little frustrated troll like you.
You know why? because it doesn't matter how much you scream, and how much you object and how much you complain- I already won. The national movment of the Jewish people- Zionism- already won. Israel exist, and there is nothing you can do about it. Why should I engage my self with a discussion that I already won 44 years before I was even born?

So you support Zionism which is a political arm of a religion. Are you an atheist?
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13-05-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(13-05-2013 12:42 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 12:24 PM)shiranl Wrote:  Fucktardo (and thank you Filox),

I am here. I just lack every will to discuss with a little frustrated troll like you.
You know why? because it doesn't matter how much you scream, and how much you object and how much you complain- I already won. The national movment of the Jewish people- Zionism- already won. Israel exist, and there is nothing you can do about it. Why should I engage my self with a discussion that I already won 44 years before I was even born?

So you support Zionism which is a political arm of a religion. Are you an atheist?

Pahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zionism is a national-secular movment.
Yes, I am an atheist. So was the founder of Zionism- Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Zeev_Herzl

"Herzl had minimal interest in religious Judaism as a child, consistent with his parents’ lax adherence to the Jewish tradition. His mother relied more on German humanist Kultur than Jewish ethics. Instead of a Bar Mitzvah, Herzl's thirteenth birthday was advertised as a "confirmation". He grew up as a "thoroughly emancipated, antitraditional, secular, would-be German boy," who dismissed all religion, and spoke of Judaism with mocking cynicism. He exhibited a secularist disdain toward religion, which he viewed as uncivilized. Even after becoming interested in the "Jewish question," Herzl's writing retained traces of Jewish self-contempt. According to Amos Elon,[2] Herzl considered himself to be atheist"
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13-05-2013, 07:18 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
shirani, I have not payed attention to all of this thread. If there are subtleties I have missed I apologize. The fact is that very much in recent years the state of Israel has been influenced by orthodox and conservative Judaism. That founders of the state may have been secular is unimportant. In its current configuration Israel is a Jewish state and acts as such.

To suggest otherwise or to claim its roots are not such is disingenuous.
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13-05-2013, 08:23 PM
Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(13-05-2013 02:10 PM)shiranl Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 12:42 PM)I and I Wrote:  So you support Zionism which is a political arm of a religion. Are you an atheist?

Pahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zionism is a national-secular movment.
Yes, I am an atheist. So was the founder of Zionism- Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Zeev_Herzl

"Herzl had minimal interest in religious Judaism as a child, consistent with his parents’ lax adherence to the Jewish tradition. His mother relied more on German humanist Kultur than Jewish ethics. Instead of a Bar Mitzvah, Herzl's thirteenth birthday was advertised as a "confirmation". He grew up as a "thoroughly emancipated, antitraditional, secular, would-be German boy," who dismissed all religion, and spoke of Judaism with mocking cynicism. He exhibited a secularist disdain toward religion, which he viewed as uncivilized. Even after becoming interested in the "Jewish question," Herzl's writing retained traces of Jewish self-contempt. According to Amos Elon,[2] Herzl considered himself to be atheist"

Why would a group of Europeans (founders of Zionism) choose Israel as a place to establish a nation?

Zionism is a European invention, by Europeans. Zionism is more like Christian imperialism than an actual Jewish thing. Why does there need to be a Jewish state, a Muslim state or a Christian state?
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14-05-2013, 06:09 AM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(13-05-2013 07:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  shirani, I have not payed attention to all of this thread. If there are subtleties I have missed I apologize. The fact is that very much in recent years the state of Israel has been influenced by orthodox and conservative Judaism. That founders of the state may have been secular is unimportant. In its current configuration Israel is a Jewish state and acts as such.

To suggest otherwise or to claim its roots are not such is disingenuous.

1. Clearly you don't know anything about Judaism, its different sects and their part in Israel's rule. In regards to state-religion relations- conservatives, together with reforms- both are liberal sects of Judaism- are on my side. Right now, no civil, conservative or reform marriage are performed by the state (non of them are illegal, and civil marriage performed in other countries are recognized by the state). However, this is an extremely debated subject in Israel- even more so from the Palestinian conflict. It is going to change, especially now when we have secular-like government. In 2012 1 out of 9 couples that got married chose not to cooperate with the law and got married in civil way abroad. Right now in the superior court of Israel there is a plee of gay couple who got married abroad and now want a divorce- divorce in Israel are only made in the rabbinical court (even if the marriage were performed abroad), which doesn't recognize the legitimecy of the marriage of the gay couple. So now, in order for them to get a dicvorce, the state must open a civil way for divorce. And again in the superior court there is another plee that demands the state to answer for why there is no civil marriage in Israel. Like I said- it is going to change.

2. Dah! we are a state for the Jewish people. of course we act like a Jewish state!


(13-05-2013 08:23 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 02:10 PM)shiranl Wrote:  Pahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Zionism is a national-secular movment.
Yes, I am an atheist. So was the founder of Zionism- Benjamin Ze’ev Herzl.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Zeev_Herzl

"Herzl had minimal interest in religious Judaism as a child, consistent with his parents’ lax adherence to the Jewish tradition. His mother relied more on German humanist Kultur than Jewish ethics. Instead of a Bar Mitzvah, Herzl's thirteenth birthday was advertised as a "confirmation". He grew up as a "thoroughly emancipated, antitraditional, secular, would-be German boy," who dismissed all religion, and spoke of Judaism with mocking cynicism. He exhibited a secularist disdain toward religion, which he viewed as uncivilized. Even after becoming interested in the "Jewish question," Herzl's writing retained traces of Jewish self-contempt. According to Amos Elon,[2] Herzl considered himself to be atheist"

Why would a group of Europeans (founders of Zionism) choose Israel as a place to establish a nation?

Zionism is a European invention, by Europeans. Zionism is more like Christian imperialism than an actual Jewish thing. Why does there need to be a Jewish state, a Muslim state or a Christian state?

Because they are persecuted Jews who wanted their own place in order to be able to protect themselves. And if they got what they wanted before 1939- guess how many lives could be saved.
Why Israel? Where else- in Europe, where they were unwelcomed? In America, where there were already sovereign countries?

Zionism is a Jewish national movment (and any national movment is an invention, Fucktardo!), established by Europian Jews. And by the way- around the same time Zionism was established the first Aliyah started in Yemen- Jews there never really knew about Zionism, and just came here because- like the Europian Jews and almost everywhere else- they were persecuted. They came here and had clashes with the Jews who already were here.....wait!! Jews that were here BEFORE Zionism?!?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yishuv
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14-05-2013, 03:28 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(14-05-2013 06:09 AM)shiranl Wrote:  
(13-05-2013 07:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  shirani, I have not payed attention to all of this thread. If there are subtleties I have missed I apologize. The fact is that very much in recent years the state of Israel has been influenced by orthodox and conservative Judaism. That founders of the state may have been secular is unimportant. In its current configuration Israel is a Jewish state and acts as such.

To suggest otherwise or to claim its roots are not such is disingenuous.

1. Clearly you don't know anything about Judaism, its different sects and their part in Israel's rule. In regards to state-religion relations- conservatives, together with reforms- both are liberal sects of Judaism- are on my side. Right now, no civil, conservative or reform marriage are performed by the state (non of them are illegal, and civil marriage performed in other countries are recognized by the state). However, this is an extremely debated subject in Israel- even more so from the Palestinian conflict. It is going to change, especially now when we have secular-like government. In 2012 1 out of 9 couples that got married chose not to cooperate with the law and got married in civil way abroad. Right now in the superior court of Israel there is a plee of gay couple who got married abroad and now want a divorce- divorce in Israel are only made in the rabbinical court (even if the marriage were performed abroad), which doesn't recognize the legitimecy of the marriage of the gay couple. So now, in order for them to get a dicvorce, the state must open a civil way for divorce. And again in the superior court there is another plee that demands the state to answer for why there is no civil marriage in Israel. Like I said- it is going to change.

2. Dah! we are a state for the Jewish people. of course we act like a Jewish state!


(13-05-2013 08:23 PM)I and I Wrote:  Why would a group of Europeans (founders of Zionism) choose Israel as a place to establish a nation?

Zionism is a European invention, by Europeans. Zionism is more like Christian imperialism than an actual Jewish thing. Why does there need to be a Jewish state, a Muslim state or a Christian state?

Because they are persecuted Jews who wanted their own place in order to be able to protect themselves. And if they got what they wanted before 1939- guess how many lives could be saved.
Why Israel? Where else- in Europe, where they were unwelcomed? In America, where there were already sovereign countries?

Zionism is a Jewish national movment (and any national movment is an invention, Fucktardo!), established by Europian Jews. And by the way- around the same time Zionism was established the first Aliyah started in Yemen- Jews there never really knew about Zionism, and just came here because- like the Europian Jews and almost everywhere else- they were persecuted. They came here and had clashes with the Jews who already were here.....wait!! Jews that were here BEFORE Zionism?!?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yishuv

I asked you why the european zionists chose the middle east to establish a jewish state. I am asking this because if the founders of Zionism were secular as you say, then what made them choose the middle east as a place to form a state?
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14-05-2013, 03:59 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(14-05-2013 03:28 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(14-05-2013 06:09 AM)shiranl Wrote:  1. Clearly you don't know anything about Judaism, its different sects and their part in Israel's rule. In regards to state-religion relations- conservatives, together with reforms- both are liberal sects of Judaism- are on my side. Right now, no civil, conservative or reform marriage are performed by the state (non of them are illegal, and civil marriage performed in other countries are recognized by the state). However, this is an extremely debated subject in Israel- even more so from the Palestinian conflict. It is going to change, especially now when we have secular-like government. In 2012 1 out of 9 couples that got married chose not to cooperate with the law and got married in civil way abroad. Right now in the superior court of Israel there is a plee of gay couple who got married abroad and now want a divorce- divorce in Israel are only made in the rabbinical court (even if the marriage were performed abroad), which doesn't recognize the legitimecy of the marriage of the gay couple. So now, in order for them to get a dicvorce, the state must open a civil way for divorce. And again in the superior court there is another plee that demands the state to answer for why there is no civil marriage in Israel. Like I said- it is going to change.

2. Dah! we are a state for the Jewish people. of course we act like a Jewish state!



Because they are persecuted Jews who wanted their own place in order to be able to protect themselves. And if they got what they wanted before 1939- guess how many lives could be saved.
Why Israel? Where else- in Europe, where they were unwelcomed? In America, where there were already sovereign countries?

Zionism is a Jewish national movment (and any national movment is an invention, Fucktardo!), established by Europian Jews. And by the way- around the same time Zionism was established the first Aliyah started in Yemen- Jews there never really knew about Zionism, and just came here because- like the Europian Jews and almost everywhere else- they were persecuted. They came here and had clashes with the Jews who already were here.....wait!! Jews that were here BEFORE Zionism?!?! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Yishuv

I asked you why the european zionists chose the middle east to establish a jewish state. I am asking this because if the founders of Zionism were secular as you say, then what made them choose the middle east as a place to form a state?

Because they felt connected to the land because of the bible, yes.
If they were religious- they wouldn't agree to the partition plan, nor to the peace treaty with Egypt, not to Oslo accords, nor to the withdrawal from Gaza Strip and south Lebanon, nor to the 2 people 2 states solution. Because according to the bible we can't give away that land because the land is God's land, and he gave it to us as keepers. like Ben Gurion said "Between the whole country and the Jewish state, we choose the Jewish state". If Zionist were religious- we would have never give up an inch of the land- and history shows we gave up a lot more then just an inch.
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15-05-2013, 03:16 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
shirani, I do know a bit about judaism if at a distance.

I would ask what your position is on the settlement issue. The settlements being very much driven by the orthodox sects. An activity which the Israeli state refuses to stop. An activity which is very much condemned by the secular world.

I think perhaps you protest too much.
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15-05-2013, 03:39 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(15-05-2013 03:16 PM)JAH Wrote:  shirani, I do know a bit about judaism if at a distance.

I would ask what your position is on the settlement issue. The settlements being very much driven by the orthodox sects. An activity which the Israeli state refuses to stop. An activity which is very much condemned by the secular world.

I think perhaps you protest too much.

Doesn't seem that way.

My position is as follow- I would like my government to invest less in the settelments right now, since we have a crisis in housing (and a huge debt), and I'd really prefer my country will built in other areas of Israel such as the north and south.
Do I think my country needs to get out of the West Bank immedietly? no. It is our bargaining chip, and I already sow what happened after we gave up Gaza- Hamas controling it instead of the PA (which isn't great either, but at least we have some sort of cooparation with it), rockets over 1 million citizens and one kidnnaped soldier whom we paid for with 1027 terrorist. No thank you, I would not like Gaza twin near my door step.

An activity which is very much condemned by the secular world? yes, and also by the entire muslim world, which isn't so secular. What did you try to claim?

And don't come to me with the BS that the settlements are "the obstacle for peace". There were no settlements before 1967 and I do not recall from my history lessons that we had peace before 1967.
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15-05-2013, 04:41 PM
RE: Should women be forced to sit away from men at the back of a bus?
(15-05-2013 03:39 PM)shiranl Wrote:  
(15-05-2013 03:16 PM)JAH Wrote:  shirani, I do know a bit about judaism if at a distance.

I would ask what your position is on the settlement issue. The settlements being very much driven by the orthodox sects. An activity which the Israeli state refuses to stop. An activity which is very much condemned by the secular world.

I think perhaps you protest too much.

Doesn't seem that way.

My position is as follow- I would like my government to invest less in the settelments right now, since we have a crisis in housing (and a huge debt), and I'd really prefer my country will built in other areas of Israel such as the north and south.
Do I think my country needs to get out of the West Bank immedietly? no. It is our bargaining chip, and I already sow what happened after we gave up Gaza- Hamas controling it instead of the PA (which isn't great either, but at least we have some sort of cooparation with it), rockets over 1 million citizens and one kidnnaped soldier whom we paid for with 1027 terrorist. No thank you, I would not like Gaza twin near my door step.

An activity which is very much condemned by the secular world? yes, and also by the entire muslim world, which isn't so secular. What did you try to claim?

And don't come to me with the BS that the settlements are "the obstacle for peace". There were no settlements before 1967 and I do not recall from my history lessons that we had peace before 1967.

Shirnal, do you believe that people came over from Europe in the 40's with smiles and hand shakes and it was those evil muslim guys that for no reason at all just started killing jewish people for the hell of it?

Do you know what settlements are for, what purpose they serve? Any look at history, early american history, colonial brittish history etc, knows that settlements are a way of conquering/stealing lands and attempts at driving out populations/or controlling populations. This is what "settling" does for Israel, that is why they use that strategy, for the same reason any other expanding country used that tactic.

How far of an expansion militarily or settling according to you is far enough for Israel. At what point would you say "Israel has expanded too far"?
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