Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
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06-02-2016, 03:05 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(05-02-2016 03:07 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I was not offended and I don't believe I stated such.

You wrote as if you were. If I misread you in that regard, my apologies.

(05-02-2016 03:07 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  But why would you single out female members here as being the only ones (feminists) who might be offended? Surely you don't subscribe to the idea that only females are feminist? Many males are feminists as well, here and IRL.

I didn't say that females were the only ones who might be offended. Where did you read that?

As for male feminists, I'm well aware that they exist, thanks. Would you kindly not impute to me thoughts I don't hold?

(05-02-2016 03:07 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  If you would give me a list of these people you consider "well known feminists" I could look them up, maybe they already have made a statement in support of equal draft registry. Do you know for a fact they haven't?

I haven't heard or read about it, but it's not so important to me that I go out looking for news reports that they've made a comment on the matter. I'm simply having a discussion on an online forum, not trying to save the world.

(05-02-2016 03:07 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I would link this very post, condescension is a disparaging remark and your use of it in regards to your supposition (I offer "supposition" since you didn't actually quote or link any feminist denial of said draft equality) that feminist do not support draft equality. Unless your snark (the adding of the ... as if you were actually waiting) had some other meaning I am not aware of, if so, please explain.

The ellipsis is condescending snark? No. It is indicative of words left out. I don't always feel like writing everything that I'm thinking, and sometimes I use an ellipsis to indicate that. Anyway -- if you know of any mainstream feminists who have criticized the male-only SSS requirement, I'm all ears. Whatcha got?
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06-02-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
I agree with Ash, Selective Service should be done away with entirely. That said, I'm pretty mentally and physically tough and I come from a military family, so I do think I could handle it if I was called upon to do so. Even though I'm somewhat of a girly girl, my dad never raised the girls in my family any different from the boys. There was never any "oh you can't do this or try that because you're a girl" in my house. I grew up riding snowmobilies, living on boats, jumping and climbing on things, taking karate lessons, and roughhousing with my three brothers. My sister, for example (who was in the military) outperformed several males on her fitness tests in military school and can still "out push up" many men I know. I don't think this is the case for all women though, like Nurse and Aliza mentioned. I also don't think all men have the physical/mental capacity to handle military life and all that comes with it. Due to this, I like the suggestion that Nurse had about all those who are drafted to be put into support roles, unless of course there are some of those draftees who want to and are physically/mentally able to be on the front lines.

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06-02-2016, 10:09 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
9/10s of the people who served in the US military during WWII never saw combat. If someone gets drafted for a war like that in the future the odds are they'll never fight the enemy directly. Therefore physical attributes are not the most important factor for a draftee. Skim the strongest off the top of a group of inductees and find jobs the others can do.

Given the above what would be the problem with drafting women?
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06-02-2016, 11:56 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(05-02-2016 02:45 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(05-02-2016 02:24 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  What are you waiting for? They do. Several in this thread alone do including me.

Or are you just flexing your anti-feminist muscle for our benefit in case we forgot.

I suppose I should have clarified -- the first well-known feminist. I know that there are plenty of fair-minded people here, of both genders, and didn't mean to offend any female members here.

For the record, I'm not anti-feminist. Not sure where you got that from ... perhaps you could link a post of mine where I state as much? I'm very much in favor of equal rights ... and responsibilities.

(06-02-2016 03:05 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(05-02-2016 03:07 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I was not offended and I don't believe I stated such.

You wrote as if you were. If I misread you in that regard, my apologies.

I accept your apology.

(05-02-2016 03:07 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  But why would you single out female members here as being the only ones (feminists) who might be offended? Surely you don't subscribe to the idea that only females are feminist? Many males are feminists as well, here and IRL.

Quote:Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I didn't say that females were the only ones who might be offended. Where did you read that?

As for male feminists, I'm well aware that they exist, thanks. Would you kindly not impute to me thoughts I don't hold?

Right here, your words: "I suppose I should have clarified -- the first well-known feminist. I know that there are plenty of fair-minded people here, of both genders, and didn't mean to offend any female members here."
I didn't impute or subscribe anything to you, I asked a question. Nothing more.

(05-02-2016 03:07 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  If you would give me a list of these people you consider "well known feminists" I could look them up, maybe they already have made a statement in support of equal draft registry. Do you know for a fact they haven't?

Quote:Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I haven't heard or read about it, but it's not so important to me that I go out looking for news reports that they've made a comment on the matter. I'm simply having a discussion on an online forum, not trying to save the world.
"Still waiting for the first feminist to support female draft registration ...." So your words were just provocation because you actually had no evidence they had not? Got it.

(05-02-2016 03:07 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  I would link this very post, condescension is a disparaging remark and your use of it in regards to your supposition (I offer "supposition" since you didn't actually quote or link any feminist denial of said draft equality) that feminist do not support draft equality. Unless your snark (the adding of the ... as if you were actually waiting) had some other meaning I am not aware of, if so, please explain.

Quote:Thumpalumpacus Wrote: The ellipsis is condescending snark? No. It is indicative of words left out. I don't always feel like writing everything that I'm thinking, and sometimes I use an ellipsis to indicate that. Anyway -- if you know of any mainstream feminists who have criticized the male-only SSS requirement, I'm all ears. Whatcha got?

No, the person making the claim, "Still waiting for the first feminist to support female draft registration ...." (that would be you making the claim that they have not) is the one responsible for the proof. Just like when godbots make a claim of god and atheists asks for proof. You made a claim, you do the research.

I'll wait...

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06-02-2016, 01:31 PM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
I havent read all the posts because cbf. I just want to say that the draft should be shut down. NO ONE should be forced to sign up.
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06-02-2016, 01:56 PM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(02-02-2016 07:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Males in the US must register on their 18th birthday, (even though there is no active draft), for the Selective Service System. If they don't, they can't get student loans, and risk all kinds of other Federally related consequences, (employment etc). Today some generals told congress women should have the same requirement.

What think ye ?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/02/...draft.html

all I can say is yes.. because I am for equality across the board.. even the parts that aren't so conveniently convent.. I see feminist not mentioning this but I see it as if you to be treated the same then why not across the board... even if that mean stuff like we split a check at a restaurant or other things.. to not would be asking for special treatment and that's not equality. nuff said..... lol

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06-02-2016, 01:57 PM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(06-02-2016 01:31 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I havent read all the posts because cbf. I just want to say that the draft should be shut down. NO ONE should be forced to sign up.

or that.. ether way.. lol

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07-02-2016, 02:15 AM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(06-02-2016 11:56 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Right here, your words: "I suppose I should have clarified -- the first well-known feminist. I know that there are plenty of fair-minded people here, of both genders, and didn't mean to offend any female members here."
I didn't impute or subscribe anything to you, I asked a question. Nothing more.

No male members registered any objection, did they? One female did. Thus, my qualifier.

Quote:Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I haven't heard or read about it, but it's not so important to me that I go out looking for news reports that they've made a comment on the matter. I'm simply having a discussion on an online forum, not trying to save the world.
(06-02-2016 11:56 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  "Still waiting for the first feminist to support female draft registration ...." So your words were just provocation because you actually had no evidence they had not? Got it.

No. I'm saying that my knowledge of their statements doesn't include any of them supporting female draft registration. Provocative? Perhaps.

My point, since you seem so determined to miss it, is that feminists don't seem very vocal about this aspect of equality, at least in the public eye.

(06-02-2016 11:56 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  No, the person making the claim, "Still waiting for the first feminist to support female draft registration ...." (that would be you making the claim that they have not) is the one responsible for the proof. Just like when godbots make a claim of god and atheists asks for proof. You made a claim, you do the research.

I'll wait...

Look, if you'd like to help me learn, have at it. Are you looking to have a teaching moment, or an argument?

I dug through Google using the search term "feminists who support female draft registration." The first reference to such was on the fourth page linking to an article originally written in 1980, and indicating that the National Organization of Women favored (and still does) female registration, even as it opposed (and still does oppose) the draft in general. But I couldn't find any high-profile feminists commenting on the issue. So the claim I made, that I haven't heard of one coming out in favor of including females in draft registration, is borne out by this search, seemingly.

Now, if you know of any that are, I'm all ears, and as you've seen already, I'm comfortable apologizing for my own errors -- and will do so if you correct me on the matter. You can either do that, and help me arrive at a better understanding of where modern feminists stand on this issue, or you can simply treat this as another Internet argument; the choice is yours.
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07-02-2016, 10:50 AM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2016 10:57 AM by I Am.)
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(07-02-2016 02:15 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 11:56 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Right here, your words: "I suppose I should have clarified -- the first well-known feminist. I know that there are plenty of fair-minded people here, of both genders, and didn't mean to offend any female members here."
I didn't impute or subscribe anything to you, I asked a question. Nothing more.

No male members registered any objection, did they? One female did. Thus, my qualifier.

Just so you know, the response above makes you look like you need a male to validate the objection of a female. Like it's a woman's opinion until a man agrees, then it's just a regular opinion.

I haven't been tracking all of Heatheness' exchange with you, so please don't take my failure to respond as assent to a position. I am not even sure what your original statement was that she objected to. I more or less agree with how you describe NOW's position: I am against conscription, but willing to join a consensus (if one emerges) for universal registration. I would want that consensus to be explicit in the goal to further limit the usefulness and probability of any future draft, not support military action. Basically I am okay with using a sexist system's paternalistic attitude toward women against itself.
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07-02-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Should women be required to register for the Selective Service System ?
(07-02-2016 02:15 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(06-02-2016 11:56 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  Right here, your words: "I suppose I should have clarified -- the first well-known feminist. I know that there are plenty of fair-minded people here, of both genders, and didn't mean to offend any female members here."
I didn't impute or subscribe anything to you, I asked a question. Nothing more.

No male members registered any objection, did they? One female did. Thus, my qualifier.

Quote:Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I haven't heard or read about it, but it's not so important to me that I go out looking for news reports that they've made a comment on the matter. I'm simply having a discussion on an online forum, not trying to save the world.
(06-02-2016 11:56 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  "Still waiting for the first feminist to support female draft registration ...." So your words were just provocation because you actually had no evidence they had not? Got it.

No. I'm saying that my knowledge of their statements doesn't include any of them supporting female draft registration. Provocative? Perhaps.

My point, since you seem so determined to miss it, is that feminists don't seem very vocal about this aspect of equality, at least in the public eye.

(06-02-2016 11:56 AM)Heatheness Wrote:  No, the person making the claim, "Still waiting for the first feminist to support female draft registration ...." (that would be you making the claim that they have not) is the one responsible for the proof. Just like when godbots make a claim of god and atheists asks for proof. You made a claim, you do the research.

I'll wait...

Look, if you'd like to help me learn, have at it. Are you looking to have a teaching moment, or an argument?

I dug through Google using the search term "feminists who support female draft registration." The first reference to such was on the fourth page linking to an article originally written in 1980, and indicating that the National Organization of Women favored (and still does) female registration, even as it opposed (and still does oppose) the draft in general. But I couldn't find any high-profile feminists commenting on the issue. So the claim I made, that I haven't heard of one coming out in favor of including females in draft registration, is borne out by this search, seemingly.

Now, if you know of any that are, I'm all ears, and as you've seen already, I'm comfortable apologizing for my own errors -- and will do so if you correct me on the matter. You can either do that, and help me arrive at a better understanding of where modern feminists stand on this issue, or you can simply treat this as another Internet argument; the choice is yours.


Thanks, I guess if you bothered to look it up then what you call "the teaching moment" is over. That was the point I was making. When you claim you are waiting for the information (implying none existed) and yet you have not made any effort to obtain it you are making an inference that it was not there when in fact you didn't actually know that.

Now, you can screw around with the words/meaning thing if you want (as you already have) but my point and my reply was that you really had no idea if they had or hadn't supported equal draft but you were making it seem as if they hadn't in order to make it look like a double standard. I simply asked for proof. Nothing more.

It seems they have made effort in the past to equalize the draft selection to include women on several occasions, the one you mentioned, also when Jimmy Carter tried to get this change done (it too was shot down but let me add it has always been shot down by men, men in the house and senate and men on the SCOTUS) and when it was taken to the SCOTUS a second time, the ACLU Women's Rights Project supported and provide aid to the attorney's and funded it.

But around the years 2000+ it seems the movement (not necessarily individuals of feminism leaders) focus was shifted to "give us equality first, then we'll support the equal draft". Many feminist (women and men) feel women are still second class citizens in our own country and think that just as soon as that changes the majority of feminist women will embrace all the responsibilities that go with the benefits but why should women put themselves in harms way when they are not even considered fully represented citizens.

In actuality the blogs I've seen in the last few years place the focus on "get rid of the draft" first but if not then "make it equal when women are equal". Their position is mainly to get rid of the draft, which I agree.


My place in this argument is still the same, my preference is to get rid of the draft but until it's gone, the selective service registration should apply equally to every one except for the physically or mentally disabled. The majority of jobs to be filled are non-combat and can be fill be people not physically capable of being infantry whether that is females or males.

*btw, maybe you should use Bing, I found a whole list of information on the first page. Smile

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